Max Mosley opens a can of worms.

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11th July 2008, 15:32
Bagwan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

ioan. I really wish you would engage brain before hitting "submit reply".

You can support someone and yet express an objective comment. You don't have to blindly support someone. It's called being objective.

For example, I support Button but criticised him this week for being a bit defeatest about his chances with the Honda.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66248

I love it that whenever you come out with these derogatory insults, you always end up with them rebounding on you :laugh:

BTW, ever find anything about Massa I've written that confirms your last accusation against me. Suppose it's too much asking for an apology :p :

Knock , I wish we could ALL be a touch more respectful , and not bother with first lines like in this last post .

Moss says not that Max should go there , but that he can't see how he could stay .
These are different things .

He goes on saying that he is good at his job , which is essentially saying he should stay .

How is this contrary to what Ioan posted ?
11th July 2008, 15:41
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagwan

Knock , I wish we could ALL be a touch more respectful , and not bother with first lines like in this last post .

Moss says not that Max should go there , but that he can't see how he could stay .
These are different things .

He goes on saying that he is good at his job , which is essentially saying he should stay .

How is this contrary to what Ioan posted ?

Baggy, it was an example of someone supporting Max but questioning his position.

I don't know about Canada but when you have an elder statesman of F1 saying he cannot see how someone can stay, it is a polite way of saying he thinks he should go.

He also said he has done a good job and is complimentary about Max.

Are people trying to be obtuse on purpose on this? It's not Rocket Engineering.

If you want more examples, please feel free to look on http://www.google.com
11th July 2008, 15:48
SGWilko

As a matter of interest. on the subject of Max's possible untenability....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvDsg...eature=related

The above 3 part interview on BBC World Talk, Max said;

'You see, the day that you start to think this can't operate without me, that's the moment you've got to stop'

That is a direct unabridged quote.

Now, what was it Max was saying about his role, that the FIA could not fight the fight without him.

I know of diseased cows that have less Foot and Mouth issues than Max! ;)
11th July 2008, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

I have answered each of your points in detail. If you dispute what I have written, please explain why. That is what is called debate, not just stating "It is because I say so".

Primary school arguements don't cut it. Neither does stating the same old opinion make it fact.

To answer your claim about "real" damage, you first need to appreciate the worlds of business and diplomacy.

Credibility is key to doing business and Max has none. He is tainted goods and not someone that large corporations are keen to be associated with. The same with some Heads of State. These are facts as have been documented by Arrows.

Your arguement that a sponsor has not withdrawen from F1 because of this is irrelevant. You seem to equate damage with catastrophic failure!!

If you cannot understand these basic points, we will never be able to have a meaningful conversation on this subject.

You have not answered my questions with an answer that would confirm your opinion to be a fact-based one or one representing even a shade of truth.

You claim that Mosley is 'damaged goods' but offer no firm evidence that this is the case. Please don't quote Jackie Stewart or Striling Moss or any other ex-F1 British driver, as their opinion is no more effective than that of Joe Bloggs.

However, to prove that my interpretation, the one that claims that the FIA continues to operate and F1 has not been affected, I'll give you some quotes from those actually involved...not from 'rent-a-quotes' with no actual input so beloved of lazy British motorsport journalists & whom some around hear fawn over every word of.

So, here goes -

"Toyota Motorsport acknowledges the result of the Extraordinary General Assembly and accepts the decision taken"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67987

"The relevant bodies of the FIA have passed a vote of confidence in Max Mosley, which means he will see out his term of office as President of the FIA, ending in October 2009. We respect this decision, which was made by the delegates in full knowledge of the facts. It is important now for everyone concerned to turn their undivided attention back to the sport."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67962

"The Motor Sports Association respects the decision of the FIA General Assembly concerning President Mosley and considers that it is now time to move on and for the sport to pull together. The Motor Sports Association looks forward to continuing to work constructively as an important member of the FIA in the future."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67960

"I am happy that Max Mosley has been re-elected president of FIA. He has done excellent work for Formula 1 in recent years. With regard to the future, it will be entirely up to him to decide if and when he should take a step back."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67986

Even those organisations who have expressed their unhappiness about Mosley's continued position to continue to work with the FIA. ADAC is still the organising body responsible for the German Grand Prix. If you were really interested in 'debate' then you would have attempted to answer why ADAC has not cancelled this years race.

The simple reason why neither you nor Arrows cannot answer that is because you have no answer. At the very least, you have no answer capable of boosting your argument.

What a shame that you have lost the argument by your own failure to support your views with anything of worthwhile substance yet continue to deride others for having a "Primary school arguement".

Your argument hasn't left Kindergarten.
11th July 2008, 16:07
SGWilko

Tamb, Knocky.

Any chance you two can agree to disagree? :)
11th July 2008, 16:16
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

You have not answered my questions with an answer that would confirm your opinion to be a fact-based one or one representing even a shade of truth.

You claim that Mosley is 'damaged goods' but offer no firm evidence that this is the case. Please don't quote Jackie Stewart or Striling Moss or any other ex-F1 British driver, as their opinion is no more effective than that of Joe Bloggs.

The damage has already been done as demonstrated in Arrow's examples. Ignore them if you want but they are there in black and white. I'm not going to go over it again as it's very boring.

Quote:

However, to prove that my interpretation, the one that claims that the FIA continues to operate and F1 has not been affected, I'll give you some quotes from those actually involved...not from 'rent-a-quotes' with no actual input so beloved of lazy British motorsport journalists & whom some around hear fawn over every word of.

So, here goes -

"Toyota Motorsport acknowledges the result of the Extraordinary General Assembly and accepts the decision taken"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67987

"The relevant bodies of the FIA have passed a vote of confidence in Max Mosley, which means he will see out his term of office as President of the FIA, ending in October 2009. We respect this decision, which was made by the delegates in full knowledge of the facts. It is important now for everyone concerned to turn their undivided attention back to the sport."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67962

"The Motor Sports Association respects the decision of the FIA General Assembly concerning President Mosley and considers that it is now time to move on and for the sport to pull together. The Motor Sports Association looks forward to continuing to work constructively as an important member of the FIA in the future."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67960

"I am happy that Max Mosley has been re-elected president of FIA. He has done excellent work for Formula 1 in recent years. With regard to the future, it will be entirely up to him to decide if and when he should take a step back."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67986

Even those organisations who have expressed their unhappiness about Mosley's continued position to continue to work with the FIA. ADAC is still the organising body responsible for the German Grand Prix. If you were really interested in 'debate' then you would have attempted to answer why ADAC has not cancelled this years race.

The simple reason why neither you nor Arrows cannot answer that is because you have no answer. At the very least, you have no answer capable of boosting your argument.

What a shame that you have lost the argument by your own failure to support your views with anything of worthwhile substance yet continue to deride others for having a "Primary school arguement".

Your argument hasn't left Kindergarten.

I acknowledge that the examples you quoted have done the right thing and drawn a line under the matter. Only the Ferrari comment at the end expresses any support for Max. The rest acknowledge the FIA's vote. Can't you feel the gritted teeth and resentment behind those statements?

There is a lot of unresolved business out there and there will be further ramifications. The knives are out.

By your reckoning, Gordon Brown has the support of the company and the electorate aren't going to kick him out at the first opportunity. This is another case of damage having been done although the ramifications haven't been played out yet.

So, I do not conceed that you have won the arguement but feel free to pat yourself on the back. It doesn't really matter because things will sort themself out in the long run. I can see some difficult times ahead though.
11th July 2008, 16:19
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

Tamb, Knocky.

Any chance you two can agree to disagree? :)

:laugh:

You must have written that as I was typing.

Really am getting bored of people that refuse to read what is posted and ignore anything contrary to their view so yes, I have given up :D
11th July 2008, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

I acknowledge that the examples you quoted have done the right thing and drawn a line under the matter. Only the Ferrari comment at the end expresses any support for Max. The rest acknowledge the FIA's vote. Van't you feel the gritted teeth and resentment behind those statements?

There is a lot of unresolved business out there and there will be further ramifications. The knives are out.

The knives were out for Max long before his personal life was made public. His enemies already existed and were already known.

The knives were out for Balestre too....the knives in F1 & motorsport haven't seen a scabbard for 58 years!

You claim that Mosley's actions have damaged F1 & motorsport, when the simple fact is that all his actions have done is damage himself. Those are two very different matters. It's a shame you can't differentiate between the two....it would help if you could.
11th July 2008, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Really am getting bored of people that refuse to read what is posted and ignore anything contrary to their view so yes, I have given up :D

You must be very bored with yourself then.
11th July 2008, 16:31
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

You must be very bored with yourself then.

:z :

Tamb. I can see your point but do not agree with it. I think the ramification of this will go on for some time but we will just have to see, wont we.

I really cannot be bothered any more.

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