Because of the segments, give it a try ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
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Because of the segments, give it a try ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
BlackBerry shares just halted on the NASDAQ pending a news announcement. Looks like the company is heading the same route as Nokia and Palm, and is about to be acquired prior to sinking totally.
They need one now, and it needs to be cheaper than the one they just brought out.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
The market Apple need to be really worried about is China. They've played hardball with China Mobile, the world's largest mobile network which has basically told them to offer iPhones at a discount or f' off from the very beginning. Apple had thought that not being able to offer iPhones on their network would bring China Mobile to their knees but no such luck. Several years later CM are telling Apple that they are not going to pay the usual subsidies for iPhones, Apple has to offer them at a discount or lose out on the biggest single market in the world.
As a result Apple is losing sales hand over fist there and is trying to clinch a deal with CM and also get more sales through other networks. The problem here is that their iPhones sell for $900 due to taxes while Android equivalents are several times cheaper. Apple therefore needs a much more affordable model now to get market penetration there before its too late and their new model isn't cheap enough IMO.
Its not much better for Google in China BTW, the government forces Android to be shipped entirely without Google apps like the App shop, Gmail and maps so they don't make any money from China at all.
Seriously, don't just blindly go for the Samsung. Take a look at the HTC and Sony equivalents. The former is a work of art whilst the latter is better built than the Samsung and water/dustproof to boot. I think both have far less bloatware too so are less laggy than the Samsung out of the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Time will tell. A lot of scaremongering came last week after the launches and with sales healthy and the brand being voted coolest in the UK, I hope Apple know what they are doing. If market tactics are obvious to some, let's hope Apples marketing department keep an eye on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
Sent from my ?
In seeking to recapture marketshare in China and other developing markets, if they go the route of offering phones that are perceived as "down market", Apple has to finely balance the benefits of increased sales with the risk of margin shrink and damage to the brand. This is precisely the point that Steve Jobs was making when he said that Mercedes and BMW don't obsess about marketshare as much as brand preservation. But still, BMW and Mercedes do play at the lower end of the luxury market. IMO, this is what Apple has to figure out. I'm not sure that they can continue to do as well as they have if they just focus on premium priced tech gadgets.
I think the China Mobile deal will happen sooner than later. They do need that. From what I've read, China Mobile has already began work on an advertising campaign.
Those concerned about Apple and market share might want to read this:
http://m.tuaw.com/2013/09/24/why-smartp ... es-top-pr/
If Apple wanted to secure a majority of the market share, they could simply produce cheap, crap phones. They have the brand that sells after all. I think the article explains the reasons why they don't take the easy route.
:laugh:
https://twitter.com/sweenz001/status/381774979672846337
:laugh: :laugh:Quote:
@sweenz001 What a fucking donk you are
( http://news.sky.com/story/1145439/water ... ers-fooled )
More morons than you can shake a stick at! I mean, really????Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
So if cheap phones will hurt your image and thus result in fewer sales, then why is Samsung doing so well?
They have both simpler and cheaper models as well as their flagship the S4, still they have the largest market share.
Regarding Apple and Iphone they're aren't really that "exclusive" as they think it is, expensive yes but overpriced
when there's S4's and HTC One's that are both better and cheaper.
Samsung have efficiencies of scale and also have the advantage of being able to manufacture the entire phone in-house slashing costs because of their background as a component maker, something no other manufacturer can do. Elop recently talked about why Nokia never went for Android, it was because they could see from very early on, around the time the S2 came out that Samsung would utterly dominate the Android world. At the time Samsung were also the only smartphone maker with a huge cash surplus available for R/D and marketing other than Apple, the rest like HTC and Sony were and remain small fry.Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
True, but in China and also in India they are under-represented if at all. In China they also have the opportunity to make profit in a market where Google isn't allowed to compete in terms of the revenue generating part of the business, ie apps and content downloading. I would have thought the opportunity cost of messing things up with China mobile are really quite significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
I think Apple are probably happy where they are when it comes to Western markets, they make a much higher profit per handset than Google taking into account apps/content sales and that side of the business is fine. Tablets look like they're hitting a race for the bottom, something they are not interested in so declining iPad sales are probably not as big a problem as people make it out to be.
Lets hope so. Perhaps Apple will learn from Google's mistakes in China which have effectively lead to them being locked out of the market too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Samsung have always made cheap mobile phones and have been doing so longer than they have made devices at the premium end of the market. They are able to develop in-house and have considerably cheaper manufacturing costs than Apple. Why is having the biggest market share so important? Why does this keep getting repeated like it is the key to success? Apple have recorded bigger profits in the mobile sector than Samsung in the last 12 months which shows they have a very different business model. Apple are investing in their brand and maximising profitability and Samsung are going for a wider reach.Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
I agree the iPhone isn't an exclusive product any more. I know more people with iPhones than any other phone so it kind of takes away the exclusivity somewhat. Your opinion though, that you can get an S4 or HTC One which is 'cheaper and better', I am afraid is a subjective opinion held by yourself. There is no correct formula to say why a phone is better than anything else in its range. I wouldn't stand here and say the iPhone is the best phone on the planet because it is obvious it has plenty of competition and different people have different tastes. The S4 or HTC One are not the best phones for 'me' or I would have had either. There are many reasons why different people choose a variety of top end mobile phones. Some people like a big screen and a spec list that puts some computers to shame. Some like reliability in an operating system. Some like a phone with a solid build and an aesthetically pleasing exterior to back up all its other attributes. An easy to use straight out of the box approach is appealing also. Some are brand loyal.... You cannot pin down as fact why any of the top phones are the outright best and I think it is best to leave that type of arrogance out of discussions like this because it gets us nowhere. Its horses for courses with all flag ship phones and my choice may not suit yours and vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
Samsung is a proof that making and selling cheaper models of phones does not affect the sales of the flagship model.
The S4 is one of the best selling phones ever despite that Samsung also have cheaper models.
Imo Its better to sell a cheap phone then not sell a phone at all.
Why it is important to have a large market share? It kind of speaks for itself doesn't it?
The bigger market share Samsung have, the smaller share the competitors have.
Yet nothing creates as much enthusiasm and buzz than an Apple launch. They get more coverage than any other product. The article I quoted earlier explains very well the reason why market share is not important to Apple, so that speaks for itself. If samsung are occupying more market share but recording less profit, it makes little difference how much market they have. It's not like Apple are struggling for sales or product interest. They could take the easy route and start churning out crap phones for under a hundred quid, but they don't need to.
Despite the luxury of making many of its own components and having a large global marketshare in smartphones and handsets (33%), Samsung saw its mobile communications operating profit margin (Q2 2013) fall from 19.8% to 17.7%. Apple's operating profit margin for that period stood at approximately 34%. Without the impressive profit gains in the components business (up 71%), Samsung would have seen its Q2 profit growth fall rather flat. But things could always be worse. I read that Nokia's operating profit margin off the Windows Phone business was around 3%. :erm:Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
I'm not really disagreeing with your point about picking up incremental sales. But clearly, it is a balancing act. A company has to be very careful about allowing cheaper, lower margin products to cannibalize sales of more expensive, higher margin products. Oddly enough, in business sometimes it really is better to pass on an incremental sale, if that incremental sale is going to harm margins too much. Finding that balance is what Apple, Samsung and all the rest must do.
Of course the issue Samsung has is that they are running Android, which is freely available and not controlled by them. So if they didn't make the cheap end phones, someone else would, thus taking the sales away from Samsung, so they make them themselves and keep the profit - because they have to.
Whereas with Apple, they own iOS, and nobody else can use it on a phone so there's no risk of a competitor making a 'cheap' iPhone thus enabling them to have only high end models.
Thing is though, it's market share is tanking now that halfway decent Android tablets are available for well under £100, and really good ones for under £200. This xmas the shops will be full of sub-£100 tablets, some awful, some actually very capable machines. There's almost no compelling reason to spend two or three times as much on an iPad, unless you're already committed to their ecosystem.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
iPads will most likely end up the same way as Macs: selling in reasonable numbers and making a decent amount of profit, but commanding a ~10% market share. That's not "tanking", I grant you, but given that Apple essentially made the form factor work after a few dismal efforts from others, MS included, that's got to be disappointing for them.
I can fully understand why people would buy £100 tablets as iPads are an extravagant purchase and quite an investment. Given the choice and if I had cash to burn I would have to still choose the iPad. I've used many tablets and we've tested many for work, however the iPad is by far the most refined experience I have used. The closest I have found is the galaxy tab, but even that falls significantly short IMO. It's what suits the individual though really and whatever takes their tastes and finances.
The HTC One is a decent enough phone. Does what I need it to do. Could not really care what it isn't good at, since I've coped do far in life without whatever it is it isn't that good at.
It's cheap. Which allows me to spend money on the things I value.
A phone is just a phone to me
I suspect that Apple disciples believe an iphone bestows upon them a degree of status which they feel is worth something it is not .
To me, they are simply image-obsessed tits.
Who gives a crap how profitable a company is, unless you have shares or work for it? It means nothing to anybody else.
Judging a product by the company's profit margin alone is a bizarre way to judge a product.
Actually I disagree. I find the mobile phone industry fascinating even though I'm no longer interested in buying their products (since I'm extremely happy with what I've got). Its dynamic with rapidly fluctuating changes in the balance of power between the main protagonists, much more so than other industries I've been interested in like cars or aviation. Then there's the interface between the technological advances in mobile phones and the relative strengths of the companies and how customers relate to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parabolica
People mock Apple users for buying them as a default but the same is true of Android users buying Samsungs as a default despite neither product really being much better than their rivals in any objective sense.
Ok, it may be of interest for interests sake, but profitability bears little resemblance to the objective value or quality of the phone.
I have an HTC which apparently operates the Android system. To be honest, I have no idea what that is and how, or even if, it is different to an iphone.
I know it was substantially cheaper, yet does everything I need it to.
It is therefore a better product.
I could not care less if an iphone would be a better status symbol.
I am not so insecure as to care.
The HTC One cost the same as an iPhone when it came out. It's price dropped hundreds of dollars since it came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parabolica
Same for the Galaxy S4 and all the other android products in the same category, if you note the trend iPhone prices generally don't change over the lifetime, and the new iPhone comes in at the same price.
This keeps prices on the second hand market high and stable for Apple products.
That is a major positive about iPhones, you generally retain a fair sum of their value when selling second hand. As long as you keep them in good condition you can sell for up to 60% of their original value. I've always kept mobiles is good condition and sold on eBay so at least I have the option to pay towards a handset that is useful for personal use and my job. By the time I sold old devices at my last upgrade and persuaded my work to contribute, I paid very little. Next time around I hope to sell the iPhone for a decent sum and then access my options. I may fancy returning to Android by then, i'll never rule that out. It all depends how cheap the contracts are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
actually I think it says more about the apple fanatics who buys the phones then the what it says about the phone itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Why would you spend so much money on a phone that is a year old? or even used? Or perhaps the price is
the whole point? Its expensive so therefore it's "status" to have one.
Also my point regarding Samsung's different price levels was that despite that they have several models
that are much cheaper then their flagship model the S4, the S4 is still selling extremely well.
Thus it proves that despite that are tons of cheaper models available it doesn't mean that
it will affect the flagship model.
I've never considered owning an iPhone as giving someone status. I think they are just nice products that have acquired an element of desirability therefore hold their value well secondhand. Apple control the prices new and maintain them through carriers which means once they are sold on, people are willing to pay a little more for them because they are still cheaper than buying new. I don't think people are necessarily 'fanatics' if they buy them. That's possibly a bit of a harsh word to use as it suggests it's an i'll informed decision on their part, and the amount of people who buy second hand iPhones is a wide market. I would be wary buying a secondhand phone myself, regardless of the brand. I just don't like the thought of being ripped off.Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
Well that does it then, I'll take Six!
What are the alternatives??Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
Why hasn't the Samsung Galaxy S3 received updates to android 4.2? And we are a few days away from the 4.4 release...
And this is the flagship phone from last year...
Apple released and update to their entire range going back 3 years.
And another thing. My iPhone 4S functions flawlessly. I can't recall a moment when my phone ever stuttered. I had a play with this years flagships from HTC and Samsung, none of them seem to be able to provide an experience so smooth.
On thé flipside, My business partner has had an iphone 4 go into meltdown, yet my HTC has survived two impacts with stone floors (one broke the screen), but in spite of having cracks all over it, it works just fine.
For the money it cost, which was less than half that I was offered for an iPhone contract, it more than has made up for any lack of smoothness in its operation.
To be honest, if you are concerned about the smoothness of the function of your phone, you have way too much free time!
Owning an HTC One has also allowed me to easily afford the SKY F1 package.
Talk about a no-brainer decision.
Over the years I've had my iphone drop from my lap onto asphalt. Still going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parabolica
May I ask how much it cost you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parabolica
I have seen a 15% drop in prices here, since it's release to buy outright, and that's the difference to the iPhone 5S. No difference between it than the iPhone 5S on contracts though.
I like my phones to be smooth when I take it out of the box. If it's just as smooth 2 years later, fantastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parabolica
This sadly isn't the case with any android device I have used so far. I am sure most android users have learned to live with it or just ignore it, for me however it's much too noticeable to swap over just yet.
It costs, roughly, £15 per month. The closest iphone contract was for more like £50.
The iphone wasn't available on the same tariff/usage allowance anyway. Most of the time I'm running it through Wi-Fi, so don't need a big data allowance and don't make many calls anyway.
It may be that it isn't as smooth, but it does the job.
I certainly have better things to spend my money on than a phone that operates more smoothly, put it that way.
I know you are not asking me :) , but I am sensing there are some untruths elsewhere in the discussion concerning the iPhone. My contract is £26 a month. I get a £10 allowance from my employer that brings it down to £16. My contract is 24 months and I have unlimited minutes and texts with 1GB of data. When I was looking to upgrade last time around I discussed the Samsung S3 here and considering I was very familiar with Android, I nearly chose that device. As it turned out, the contracts for a new iPhone 5 were the same price and in some cases slightly cheaper and after comparing the two, I chose the iPhone. It all depends how you negotiate your contract and where you find it as you will always be able to get money off, especially if you have years of loyalty with your carrier. iPhone contracts are not the expensive for expensive sake deals they used to be. I have to also say I dropped my iPhone for the first time last week and have a nice big dent in the bottom corner of the bezel. It still works and is affordable to me even with my strained finances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
Phones are everyday objects and you have to get one that suits your needs. If you sign up to a 24 month contract, you have to have piece of mind that it will be working to its full potential up until the end of the contract. If you can get a device that you know will be worth a decent sum of money sold on at the end in order to spread the cost, then all the better. My £16 a month mobile phone is £2 cheaper than my broadband in my home, so both combined are still a lot cheaper than other forms of entertainment. :)
I'd prefer to be called a liar directly, although either way it's an unnecessarily aggressive attitude to bring to a discussion.
I accept what people say on here in good faith, as it aids healthy debate.
It's a shame that level of respect isn't reciprocated. I had hoped it would be.
If somebody got an iphone for £26 a month, good for them. That deal was not available to me, and with due respect it is still more expensive than the contract I have for the HTC.
I'm on $40 a month (£20) due to a "technicality" in my contract, but the going rate here for all flagship models is absurdly high 89$ a month.
And as for my broadband, I pay 130$ a month.
It's shocking that carriers in Europe and the US can absorb the entire price of the phone.
16*24 = 384; less than what you would pay for an HTC One at a shop (395+).
26*24 = 624; slightly more than the cost of an iPhone (549+).
I got the HTC when my previous, non-smart phone, contract was up for renewal.
At the time, the HTC One V had just come out and O2 were offering it at £15 per month.
Both a new iPhone and a new top range Samsung were substantially more.
I didn't even consider them, for that reason.
If people choose to spend their money on a phone which costs more, then claim they are cash-strapped in other areas, it begs the question why they haven't been fiscally prudent, and raises questions as to the wisdom of their choices.
I'm sure the iPhone is excellent. It seems to carry an additional cost which this poster could not justify.
Perhaps that is why I am solvent enough to be able to afford other things?
That one letter there makes a HUGE difference. HTC One V != HTC One.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parabolica
It does not fall into the same category as the HTC One, S4 or iPhone; and this is the category to which I was referring.
So this has all been pointless?? Meh.
The S4, HTC One, iPhone etc are all devices that come out within the same "status symbol" price range. My point was the HTCs and Samsungs drop value substantially, 20-30% within months, while the iPhone does not and maintains value in the second hand market too.
The S4 and One both came out at the 600£ and are now both under 400, thats 30% in 6 months!!!
You can still sell your old iPhone 5 second hand for that price.
So what does an iPhone, or for that matter an HTC One, do that an HTC One V doesn't?
Would it change my life?
If not, then it is still relevant, since it is clear that I can function in smart-phone-world without greater expense.
Which, to me, is more important than the smoothness of the machine.
I justified. I might not be able come September 2014 however. I use it for my job, I get it partially paid for, I sold old devices and covered a substantial amount of the cost. I justified, I justified.
Good for you that you think you justified it.
I hope you can next year too.
If I was your employer, I'd want to know why you could not use something cheaper, but that is just the way I am business-minded.
And if someone can tell me why the extra cost is justified, that would be nice.
Smoothness alone isn't enough of a justification.
It still looks like a poor decision.
Is there some program that is on the iPhone that is required for your work which isn't available elsewhere?
By your manner, I'm beginning to suspect that you aren't interested in debating, but I'm prepared to give the benefit for now.
It's just been brought to my attention that I am on an ignore list, so the answers will never be known.
If anyone wishes to enlighten me from their perspective, they are most welcome.
Koz? You seem capable of debate and, respectfully, you seem to know the subject. Could you oblige where others refuse?