They were boarded in International waters. They have EVERY right to defend themselves just as container ships have the right to defend themselves against pirates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
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They were boarded in International waters. They have EVERY right to defend themselves just as container ships have the right to defend themselves against pirates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
Even IF they were (which I doubt), your "innocent" soldiers had no business on that ship and should not have entered it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
If I believed everything the IDF and Israel say, I might also believe that al Qaeda tried to avoid civilian casualties but were overwhelmed by airline passengers who forced them to ram those planes into the WTC buildings.
Hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid passes over to Gaza each and every day. It's just inspected to make sure they don't smuggle weapons (which they fire into civilian population centers) inside. The flotilla was offered to unload all the aid and leave freely. They decided to go and commit a suicide PR attack. They succeded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
This still doesn't change the fact that they boarded the ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. This is illegal. But illegal means nothing to an Israeli and never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
Blockades are done in international waters, so what is your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Illegal by what standard. So called international laws are farce with no legal authority to make them absoute.
Thats true, but every individual can do, and they should for instance when shopping fruits check the orign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
I will be doing this from now on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
What's that I hear? The sound of hot air? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
I've read a post of yours lately where you declared proudly how you drove quickly on a public road (while chasing Mark if I'm not mistaken, and how you were also caught doing 20 over the speed limit in Aus). That is ILLEGAL. I guess Daniel breaks the law and endangers others for a cheap thrill or when in a hurry. Israel breaks the law to protect its citizens and to prevent weapons getting into Gaza.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
What effect does a 5.56mm round have on a 12 year old with a slingshot? You really think that information is worth the billions a year we give to Israel? We'd be MUCH better off giving more weapons to warring countries in Africa or South America. At least then we'd have current information and data on what difference our weapons and technology make when roughly equal armies meet in battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
OK! Great! :bounce: I've had enough. I'm ready to pull up stakes right now. When does the plane leave? Thank you for removing the yoke from the American taxpayer's neck. And I look forward to your support in my quest to repeal the Cranston Amendment. I am against any law or policy which gives Israel (or ANY OTHER COUNTRY) a legal guarantee of U.S. taxpayer funds that's at least equal to their interest costs for that year. I am against any law or policy which gives Israel (or ANY OTHER COUNTRY) interest payments on money that's been borrowed from the U.S. but not yet disbursed. I asked my banker if he'd give me a deal like that and he joked that we'd both wind up in jail over that.Quote:
You're welcme to leave when you think you've had enough.
Look, I don't hate your country - I just don't see Israel as being as "special" as Israel claims itself to be. And I'm sick and tired of my country constantly having to shell out money (that we don't have!) and run cover for your country on the Security Council everytime you stick your foot in a pile of ####... which causes that many more countries to hate us.
You say we can leave and keep our money in our pockets. But we both know that the Israeli lobby will never let that happen. Why be a tease? :D
do you seriously belive that any weapons will be found on those ships? speeding and murdering a few civilians is about the same difference like consentration camp and holiday on the beach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
I believe that if that ship was to enter Gaza, ships that would follow it would no doubt be carrying weapons. Hamas is in a big problem now since Egypt is building an underground wall to stop weapons being smuggled from Sinai. The only option for them to smuggle weapons inside is by sea now. Murdering civilians and protecting yourself against a lynch is about the same difference between lying and telling the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
move israel to north dakota
problems solved
really good idea, but check first that there is no indian reservates near by, because the israelis would start build settlements there very soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
LOL. When I was driving behind Mark it was all below the speedlimit :rotflmao:
As for being caught @ 20 over the limit. Have you ever sped in your life? Thought so!
The difference between me and your country is that I don't pretend to be special and am prepared to accept the consequences. If ever I've been caught speeding I've admitted to doing the wrong thing. That's something Israel has NEVER done.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10199480.stm
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu called the incident "murder committed by a state" and said Israel had "lost all legitimacy".
The Turkish Foreign Minister is probably right on this one. Considering that the flotilla originally came from Northern Cyprus and not Turkey, I am wondering exactly what was in those ships.
"Northern Cyprus" itself isn't exactly the most legitimate of states.
If in fact the flotilla was purely humanitarian in nature, then this was essentially an act of state terrorism by Israel, if if wasn't then perhaps there's an element of justification for it.
The problem is that the destination of Gaza is controlled by Hamas. Hamas has in as many words as one of its objectives, the destruction of Israel.
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
On the Destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
(Preamble)
The poor people who suffer through all of this are the people of Gaza themselves. I'm sure that a great deal of them are jack of both Israel and Hamas and would rather that everything just stop and they can get on with their lives.
All the evidence you need of previous acts.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072500260.html
JERUSALEM, July 25 -- An Israeli airstrike hit a United Nations post in southern Lebanon late Tuesday, killing four international observers
Rani will probably come back and say that the ships were told that this was going to happen, there fore it legitimises it.
That after all was his comment in a previous thread on the King David Hotel bombing by the zionist terrorist group Irgun........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
I'm just a common American use to our countrys values. I feel as though we could get by better without trade with any other nation. Lets go back to If a person wants something from another country let that person pay the taxes and forget All this crap about we owe you and our soldiers should be put in harms way because you can't defend yourself. See if the bad guys tear up the east and then we fight one country and not several small controversies and our own wars at the same time.I don't mean to upset our allies or throw them to the wolves.A song comes to mind "If you leave me now"- I don't want to have to feel thjis way.
I persoally feel we've helped too many for too long and its time we put the US frist and worried about our future.
I'm honestly saddened to be saying these things but its about time we were more concerned and careful of what we are getting ourselfs into.
I'm not just to refering to the east beither. NAFTA and the mexican drug wars been going on for 30 some years and we have always been fighting a losing war alone. Who comes to our aid.
I'm not triing to be off subject and not irate, just fed up and tired of the US watching our backs in someplace we really don't need to be in.
I suppose that is one way to consider international law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
What was your point?
Wow then we could move N. Dakota to where Israel is and keep a much closer watch a deal much quicker with the muslim radicals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
Good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Good post.
I think it's clear that delivery of aid was not the true intention. It was offered several times that any aid could be delivered after inspection, but that offer was declined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
I'm still up in the air on this action myself. I think Israel could have easily just waited until the vessels were within the boundries set forth under the Oslo Accords, then seized the ships. However, at the same time, it seems that there is some grey area in how naval blockades are allowed to be enforced, especially when it is clarified that the vessels in question have full intention of violating the naval blockade.
The UN says the aid that get through is only fraction of what is needed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10193249.stm
Quote:
Israeli government press officers have been briefing journalists that the aid flotilla is not necessary. Israel says it allows 15,000 tons of aid into Gaza every week.
But the United Nations, which calls the blockade a "Medieval siege", says this is only a fraction of what is needed and less than a quarter of what was coming into Gaza before the blockade was enforced.
Or give them to the Palestinians, so that they'd have something else than their homemade rockets that never hit anything but ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
And we all know that Israel does the lying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
You have to get the jews out of there to increase the size of the bullseye. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Airshifter posted very similar to what I was thinking. There is no question this well publized flotilla was a deliberate attempt to break the blockade. Israel had no real choice except to intercept it if they were going to continue an effective blockade.
Right or wrong both Eygpt and Israel are blockading and checking all supplies into Gaza.
Everybody knew that Israel could not let the flotilla through without doing something. They maybe should have done the interception closer to Gaza but naval blockades and interception are nothing new on the open seas. At one time any merchant ship stupid enough to refuse to stop for an inspection by a warship was quite likely going to be sunk. Israel did not go that far.
A lot of the 'shock and horror' is just political posturing.
Should Israel not find any contraband then they should let the supplies proceed. If there is contraband then Israel has the right to seize all including the ships.
I hope they do not and do let everything not considered contraband be forwarded to Gaza.
Also Eki do not try and tell me that Hamas do not lie as well.
An interesting article here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...s-1987989.html
I like the comparison with the Berlin airlift:
"In 1948, our politicians – the Americans and the British – staged an airlift into Berlin. A starving population (our enemies only three years before) were surrounded by a brutal army, the Russians, who had erected a fence around the city. The Berlin airlift was one of the great moments in the Cold War. Our soldiers and our airmen risked and gave their lives for these starving Germans."
"For it is a fact, is it not, that had Europeans (and yes, the Turks are Europeans, are they not?) been gunned down by any other Middle Eastern army (which the Israeli army is, is it not?) there would have been waves of outrage."
Not really related to this thread however, this guy's comments are so true.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...pakistan-drone
"Specialised in logistic and finance, since 2001 Yazid became the key link between al-Qaida, which is based in Pakistan's tribal areas, and the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan, according to Michael Scheuer, a former head of the CIA cell hunting bin Laden."
"All this is negated by what the Israelis did to that relief convoy," said Scheuer. "Whatever we gained from killing Sheikh Yazid, what the Israelis did will just cause more animosity to the United States. But Americans have a very hard time connecting the dots."
Yes, Turks are Europeans, unlike Israelis, although Israel for some weird reason is in the Eurovision Singing Contest. The least they should do to punish Israel for this atrocity is to ban them from the the Eurovision Singing Contest :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
No wonder airshifter believes that the UN Security Council resolutions gave the US a permission to invade Iraq. The resolutions and statements of the UN in general are so vague that anybody can understand them like they want:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06...d-calls-probe/
Quote:
After an emergency meeting and marathon negotiations that lasted nearly 12 hours, the 15 council members finally agreed on a presidential statement. It was weaker than what was initially demanded by the Palestinians, Arabs and Turkey because of objections by the United States, Israel's closest ally.
The Islamic nations had called for condemnation of Monday's attack by Israeli forces on the flotilla "in the strongest terms" and "an independent international investigation."
But the presidential statement that was finally agreed to and read at a formal council meeting instead called for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards." And it only condemned "those acts" that resulted in deaths, without naming Israel.
Quote:
Mexico's U.N. Ambassador Claude Heller, who took over the council presidency from Lebanon at midnight, said "impartial" meant "independent" and that Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has the responsibility to organize the investigation. He also said it was clear the condemnation referred to the "excessive force" by the Israeli military.
The Palestinians' Mansour said almost all the members of the Security Council support Heller's interpretation. He said the Palestinians and Arabs would press the secretary-general to pursue an independent investigation.
That is a lie; there would have been war, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
The analogy is bogus as how many people were killed by rockets and terrorists in West Berlin?
Probably about as many as in Israel, i.e. not many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Do you practice making obtuse statements or is it a natural talent?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
---------------------------
Here is the number who killed trying to escape INTO West Berlin:
"More Than 1,100 Berlin Wall Victims
More than 1,100 people died trying to escape the former East Germany, according to new research by a prominent victims group presented Tuesday ahead of the 44th anniversary of the building of the Berlin Wall....
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1673538,00.html
VS
A partial death toll of those killed by Palestinian muslim murders:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/8...tacks20007.jpg
Too hard to find out how many were killed by rockets but dead is dead.
The muslims do not care how they murder, with the homicide bombers being proof positive.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-...orism+sinc.htm
Wow! They killed 3 in 2007! That's almost a third of those peace activists Israel killed yesterday. Can you now show a similar diagram of those who Israel have killed meanwhile? Palestinians and others. I remember that in 2006 they killed 4 UN military observers in Lebanon, including a Finn, in addition to hundreds if not thousands of Lebanese civilians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Not for a lack of trying, though. Even today 2 armed terrorists tried to pass into one of the kibbutzes and go on a killing spree. I'm so sorry we have found ways to deal with terrorism and don't get killed enough for you Eki.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
People being killed in delf defense while being lynched is different to firing rockets at population centers, bombing busses filled with children, and how could I forget Samir Kuntar, Lebanon's national hero who killed a 4 year old girl by smashing her head against a rock with the butt of his rifle. Some hero. None of my heros have done that.
Traffic alone kills about 400 people in Finland every year. I wonder why the police isn't out there trying to kill the motorists.
So, what is your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
You prefer hundreds murdered every year to single digits- brilliant.
U.N. observers- put yourself in harms way and bad things can happen.
If the muslims were not murdering people they would not be there, or if the palestinian hypocrites would just take back Jordan.
No, I'd prefer Israel using force proportional to the threat, now it's excessive. Or better yet, send home the first generation immigrants, withdraw from the occupied territories and give the vacated land back to the Palestinians so that they can found an independent Palestine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
They are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki