Yeah but the drivers reckoned that they did write those emails!Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Yes you do! Just keep doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
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Yeah but the drivers reckoned that they did write those emails!Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Yes you do! Just keep doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
who says they didn't ?....Have you been able to read all the files in this case ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
why someone has to raise the alarm for things they legaly obtained ? and again..when you say things like.."they made use of the data"..show me ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Someone might counter that with, 'show me they didn't?'Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
so you admit there can't be shown prove either way right ? I thought in that case..nobody is guilty until proven differently no ? than why the conviction ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
It's pointless wasting my time on people like you. If you read the FIA judgement you would know the answers to all your questions....Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
If you read the FIA judgement you would see this is not the case. There is proof that they DID use the data so McLaren would have to prove that this is not the case to appeal the decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
well daniel..maybe you can copy and paste them parts out of it that answers my questions on here ? would be really kind and I thank you in advance !Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I didn't admit anything. I am not an investigator with the FIA, I take no professional interest in the outcome of the spying row. I tried to make the point that we (the general public) know a fraction of the 'facts'. What happened behind a multitude of closed doors will probably remain there. You challenged someone on a public forum to prove themselves. I responded in kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Back to the fuel eh? :)
Because there is a big difference between the legal system of a country and the rules of a club.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
The FIA Formula One World Championship is a club, not a legal system.
Mclaren signed up to be a member of the club when they signed the current Concorde Agreement and entered into the F1 championship.
Therefore, like every other club where membership is voluntary, the FIA can pretty much run itself the way it likes.
If Mclaren didn't know that, then at best they are niave. If Mclaren did know this, which seems the most plausible, then they knew what they were getting themselves into.
http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...ion_130907.pdfQuote:
Originally Posted by TL
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Originally Posted by tamburello
yes ok..But does it anywhere says.....legaly obtained information can't be used ?
It wasn't legally obtained :rolleyes: Your mother didn't tell you NOT to go to Argentina and swim in a vat full of strawberry yoghurt. Doesn't mean you should go and do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Back to the fuel...
In 1983, the fuel samples taken from the Brabham-BMW's of Nelson Piquet & Riccardo Patrese at the title-deciding South African GP were found to be above the specified octane-rating.
Nelson Piquet had just snatched the title from Alain Prost and the Renault team by 2 points, Prost having had a lead of 12 points with 4 races to go.
Renault, who could have appealed and would probably have won the appeal (speculation, but at the time FISA had a French president not known for his anglophile sympathies and at war with Brabhams owner...one Mr Ecclestone, no less).
Renault decided not to appeal, on the basis that they did not want to win the title in the courts.
If only Ron Dennis had that kind of integrity instead of being a duplicious hypocrite.
Mercedes-Benz must be so embarrassed.
I should also point out that industrial espionage is a criminal offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
again..what's ilegall when someone within a team..gives out info...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
if Mcl..would have hired someone to infiltrate within Ferrari and spy for them ok..I would agree....But that's not the case...
also...when an employee from one team moves to another ( fe a driver or engineer) and they reveal info they gathered the previous season from the old team..they can be seen as spies ?
You're speculating. The evidence is there in that PDF. Lets discuss evidence and not speculate as to whether the coriolis effect (or some other such nonsensical argument) has something to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
It should also be pointed out that when a designer moves team they're usually put on gardening leave so anything they know is probably months old and therefore useless.
Getting back to the "cool fuel" issue, I think Max ought to fine Williams and BMW-Sauber $1.00 each. In addition, as Ralf has worked for both Williams and BMW, there is the possibility he could have been the genius behind the cooling scheme. Ralf shall therefore be banned from F1 for the 2008 season.
To avoid future problems with ridiculous technical regulations that seem to defy proper testing, I will accept $22 million from Max and appoint a twenty member panel of my choosing from this forum to review, delete, add, or revise the technical regulations for the 2008 season. We shall also publish a schedule of penalties that shall be applied upon proof of violation of a regulation. The FIA, teams, and driver's shall have no input or vote on the final specifications.
If you know things haven't been legal in any way or the other..you should make an appeal..if it's the first or the last GP..doesn't matter...rules are rules..for everyone...If you don't make an appeal..U basicaly agree for teams to cheat...and what's goin to happen than ?Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
It's called sportsmanship.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Actually, if you have plans for a bomb at home, you in are in deep shyte already.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
oooooooh ok...I C...seems we have a different view on the meaning of sportsmanship than !Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Interesting... Never heard about that before. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Though to balance this:
In the 1986 World Rally Championship, Lancia's Markku Alen had won the driver's title after the Peugeot 206's were controversially DQ'd from the San Remo rally after the Italian stewards ruled that the Peugeot's underbody fins were side skirts, which were banned, despite no such scrutineering problems on the same body panel for the other events before the rally. This brought into question the fact that Lancia was an Italian team that was behind in the championship on Italian home soil. Peugeot's initial appeal failed, and they were DQ'd before the rally finished, meaning they could score no points regardless.
However, apon appeal to FISA some weeks after the seasons' end and Alen was already crowned champion, Peugeot won. No points were awarded for anyone for the San Remo rally, and Peugeot's Juha Kankkunen was crowned champion after the title had been decided in court. Which I suppose was also questionable as FISA's president was also pretty nationalistic.
But there's one title (be it not in F1) that hasn't gone down as shameful (I don't think?) due to its outcome being decided in court.
tamburello's example is extremely pertinent. There are limits to how far these things ought to be taken. As I said earlier, it is largely McLaren's fault that Hamilton wasn't in the position to win the title without requiring 'help' like this, because of the car's technical problems. For them to appeal in this case is an act of some desperation.
Malllen — the Peugeots that were disqualified from the San Remo rally in 1986 were 205s, not 206s. That was an absurd situation with an utterly unfair outcome, and it ended a horrible year for world rallying which was far worse than F1's year has been in 2007, because people died. Unless Italy reintroduces the death penalty specifically for Nigel Stepney, that's not going to be the case as a result of all that's gone on recently in F1.
Ah bugger it, that's what I meant. But still, Peugeot weren't shamed for it as far as I can tell (from the trusty internet) :D .Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Actually it wasn't a team related technical problem, more like driver related.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
However their 3 stops strategy didn't help things a bit.
Did he cause the problem that forced him to slow and drop to the back of the field, then?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
As posted before he admitted to pressing a button that caused that issue ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
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Originally Posted by BDunnell
I seem to remember some Minis being D/Q's from the Monte because they had the wrong coloured headlight bulbs or something, and some French car won as a result.
Why are we giving suggestions of how it might go on appeal when they have stated that they do not have proper evidence to find them in breach of the regulation ?
You can't appeal a decision that wasn't made .
I mean , it's interesting and all , but kind of irrelevent when you figure they couldn't show them to be breaking the rule .
In McLaren world everything is possible, since they managed to escape a 2 years ban they believe to have more rights than anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Rony boy those 100.000.000 dollars were a fine not a buy out of the FIA!
And now a detailed alternative explanation has been provided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Well said. These are the frustrations of this whole thing. It's hard to believe Mac is so stupid after all the breaks they got this year... and the BS that they just want to clear up the rules... what disengenuous arses... This is only for Lewis of course, and FA would not benefit. Lewis does have some class, but if he really wanted to show it, he would come out and directly say, I will not accept the drivers championship on appeal this year.
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Originally Posted by ioan
Just one question. If this was mclarens fuel does anyone here think that mclaren would not be disqualified.
In same circumstances why would they act differently with McLaren?Quote:
Originally Posted by spiritone
Well, after Mclaren pressed with appeal, I hope that on December 6th Max will ban them from next year.
Was he trying to push the button that was supposed to shoot the missle at Fernando?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
:p
ClarkFan
McLaren are claiming that they don't have anything against Raikkonen and Ferrari and admit they were beaten on the track. They claim that they don't have anything against BMW and Williams and aren't suggesting that the teams tried to cheat. They claim that the issue is "too important" not to appeal.
What a load of rubbish! There's only one reason for McLaren to appeal and that's to win the championship. It's their last and only hope to salvage something from this season. Why can't they just admit it? Everyone knows it. Why lie?
Question? Why aren't Red Bull, Toyota and Super Aguri appealing? They will gain points if the BMWs and Williams cars are DQ'd. It's because they have little to gain even with the points. They don't, however, feel that the issue is "too important" and needs clarification.
McLaren do have something to gain but for some reason don't want to admit it.
Poor sportsmanship, I say.
I was mostly neutral to McLaren prior to this year, but I have no respect for them left, and especially Ron Dennis. This is really the worst way to end the season from their prospective. (Especially after LH and FA were let of with no loss of points). I wish some of the shakers of the F1 world would come out and speak against this, and ask them to recall the request.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Lewis himself ought to speak out and say he will not now accept the WDC title from Kimi in this manner. (Not simply as he's already said he'd prefer to win it on track)
During the '86 San Remo on the final day one of the Lancias stopped in the stage to allow Alen to catch and pass, to make up the time. A really unsavoury end to a shameful episode, ....well it was in Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Anyway I can't see the problem with McLaren appealing, the teams that finished ahead of one of their cars were found to have fuel irregularities, so is that okay? I don't think so, even though the performance improvement is negligible. What if it had happened early on in the season, I'm sure they might have been DSQ'D.
Back to Stepney and Ferrari, don't remember them being punished, after all their failure to control a member of their staff, or don't penalties affect Ferrari?