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Chaim, I can't find much fault with what you wrote. I've been critical myself, and I love this series and its history. Which is why we can't give up, either on the series or the possiblity of a merger. It's too important. I don't wannt to see a great sports tradition die because of a rich man's parlor game. If we continue to believe and put pressure on CCWS to do a better job, maybe we will finally see some light at the end of the Monaco Tunnel.
Put another fork in them. Next Marketing (the savior with Richitelli at the helm) hung up their helmets last week and resigned the Champ Car account. Next: CDW's contract is up at the end of the season and they are also saying bye, bye. Richitelli ran this account too. What's left? What's left?
Booger,
Is this really true? I am not going to press you for a link or proof, but that is worrying news. Please say that this is just your opinion.
Now more than ever the CCWS leaders need to call a press conference and explain what is going on. Time for the boys to step up and show some leadership. Even if things look bad, talk about the problems and accept that things are difficult, but will get better because of the new plans. Reassure everyone involved with the series. Provide details of the new and wonderful marketing and promotional campaign that will re-energise the series.
Goodness, they have spent so much money on the series, you would think that they would want to protect their investment!
Sorry guys, but the fat lady just finished her soundcheck and is about to step up to the mike for her finale...heard that Houston is now about to goo bye-bye too. This is it folks...the beginning of the end...imo, of course, we'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer
Not surprised that NEXT left, before they got the boot. I am hearing that there are others with huge motorsport experience, already at work.
I would'nt put away my CC clothes just yet. Just because NEXT made one deal doesn't mean they own that company or control what they do with future sponsorship. But, for all I know you own CDW and are tippin' your hand. But I don't think so.
I would not be surprised to see several changes at CC. KK seesm to be a guy who tries to hire good people and let them work. If things don't go as well as planned, move on to someone new - or old - to get the job done.
CC has made many great strides and a few backward steps, and has just stood around at times during the last year, but overall they are the best racing product on any track anywhere, and if priced right, they are the best marketing value in motorsports. I do not know how they have been trying to price it, perhaps too high,,, but there is a market for what CC provides and the trick is finding the right way to attract and hold those companies.
CC has not been doing that. Perhaps the deal is different than football , or tennis, or bowling. With NEXT gone, that opens the door for a marketing team that can get the job done. Just my opinion of course. But I cannot ignore the fact that CC is the best racing product in the business.
Sandyfly my brother speaks the truth as I know it from hearing what those who know are telling those lime me who they trust as they work the plan regardless of the ones who want our great series dead becuse is prooves that FTG is out of time and out of things he can steal from us since he and the traitors have no vision that they do not take from those of us who know the truth. Puck doubters this is just another hole in the road to being the nightmayor for the Grandson and little France and BE and Max becuse they fear us now that we have proven that they don't own the world and real fans can see truth so there is no place they can hide and those who want us dead will have a surprise because I am told this is all part of a plan that only the ones who know the truth will follow. what is so hard to understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandfly
Thank you anointed one for sharing the gospel with us unworthy....Quote:
Originally Posted by Papyrus
rh
Are you seriesous? I am four I speak with those who know and there is no probelms anywhere you say becuase the good is yet to come and the good keeps on getting better as we move forwards to more of what we all want and desire even though we all know others don't want us to have what we desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
New cites see our value and see our fans when others have not and the new series sponser will cover the earth as we go ahead with the Amigos plan that they have formed with no thinking of FTG or those who go in circles that only ignorent red state haters can watch.
Our series is alive and that is what scare the other series becase they see what we can be and they can never be becuase we are ChampCar,,, racing American styles since 1909 and you can't stop that witch is not stopible.
Are you mauking me? If you our then you should look in the mirrer and see that what you desire is what I work for each day I wake up for fight to keep alive what is right. Did you see Assen? Fans know the truth and those who preseve and keep what we desire see this and will never give up and I will be proof, so before you sit there and make a joke know that they know me and speak to me and not to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop-98
Mauk, hardlee, I am THANKING you oh pressed shreds of cloth....In your PM's you have shown me the path of enlightenmentQuote:
Originally Posted by Papyrus
Street Courses Good
Laguna Seca better
Major
What is so hard to understand? Why you can't find the damn shift key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papyrus
What is so hard to understand? Why you can't find the period key.
What is so hard to understand? In one word... YOU!
Gary
LGBP Survives Series
The Long Beach Grand Prix feels more like Liechtenstein every day.
The tiny principality is small in size only. It's an Old World city with a new world economy that appears disaffected by the tumult in that lands around it.
Such is the Grand Prix. The city fathers love the event. It draws six-digits worth of humanity annually to its weekend of racing, and the economic community considers it institutional stock.
Now if only it could get away from the tumult of Champ Car.
The racing series is once again beset by problems and gaffes, operated by directors who seemingly can't read a map, which is not a good thing if auto racing is your game. The people who run the Grand Prix look at this mess, shrug their shoulders yet again, and move on with its usual purpose.
The race isn't immune to these problems, but it has a stronger constitution than others.
"We can operate in a semi-autonomous vacuum," said Jim Michaelian, the CEO of the Grand Prix Association. "We like to think we have the greatest venue for the sport in North America, and we continually put on a good show.
"There's no doubt our task is more challenging than it was years ago, but it doesn't stop us from doing our thing to make the race a success and evolve."
Success is not a word the Champ Car World Series can use, and there's more de-evolution than evolution for the group. The circuit is simply overwhelmed by the things on its plate.
Like a lack of name drivers.
Sebastian Bourdais, the mild-mannered Frenchman who has won six of the 12 races this season, 29 in his career and 26 of the last 53 in the series, is headed to Formula One next season, taking away the circuit's most successful name.
Robert Doornbos, the rookie from the Netherlands who has six podium finishes and two wins this season, is a former F1 vet who will likely have his pick of tours to choose from next season. Katherine Legge, the pleasant Brit who gained the circuit some notoriety in 2006, is struggling with Coyne Racing, the Tampa Day Devil Rays of open-wheel racing.
Justin Wilson (four podiums in 2007) may make the move to the Indy Racing League next season. Promising rookie Graham Rahal, the only American on the tour, has four podiums this season, and one imagines it's just a matter of time before he starts driving for his dad Bobby in the IRL.
Like a dwindling number of events.
Two events on the 2007 schedule have been scrubbed, the long-awaited race in China that had already been moved to October, and the Pheonix race that was supposed to be the season-ender and bring the tour back to North America after four months overseas. They mark the fourth and fifth races to be cancelled in the last three years.
The Las Vegas race, conducted by the same people who just cancelled the Phoenix race, is in doubt for 2008. It was announced Tuesday that the race in San Jose will move to Laguna Seca in 2008, which is a storied track but also represents a move from a big-name city to a rural track.
There were also two separate seven-week breaks in the season. The IRL held just 17 events, but had larger fields. For comparison purposes, NASCAR has as many racing weekends as Champ Car and the IRL combined.
Like a lack of growth in teams.
Two teams that merged before the season, RuSports and Rocketsports, have since split. Champ Car's promise of a lineup of 20-plus cars each event wasn't met, with 17 starting most events this season. The IRL may not be much better off than Champ Car in the exhaust of NASCAR, but there are still team names like Andretti, Ganassi, Foyt, Rahal/Letterman and Penske in the sport. In Champ Car, there's Newman/Haas.
(That said, the IRL just announced a plan to eliminate race purses and switch to revenue sharing to prop up weaker teams, which could lead the Andrettis et al to consider jumping back to Champ Car.)
Like geography.
Of the 16 races, only seven were held in the United States, with three others in Canada and four across various oceans. With Phoenix gone, the North American calendar ended in mid-August.
This disparity may become even greater. The three men who run Champ Cap, Kevin Kalkhoven, Paul Gentilozzi and Dan Pettit, are openly talking about adding more events in Europe after great reception from their events in Belgium and the Netherlands this month.
NASCAR dominates here. F1 is looking more to emerging nations than Old World ones, and it is cutting its investment in Europe dates, which makes Champ Car's thought of invading Europe almost sensible. Europe offers Champ Car things it can't get here - like sponsorship and TV ratings.
For those still dreaming of a merger with IRL, forget it. Once the IRL's Tony George couldn't get the terms he wanted on a merger or a working relationship, the idea went dead.
"We want Champ Car to have a strong North American presence, and we want a schedule where there aren't so many bloody long periods without races," Michaelian said. "And we want American drivers and American teams that we can promote.
"We're in a renewal phase with ticket holders, and they ask these kind of questions. We get notes from fans that want to know if Rahal/Letterman and Scott Speed (who's leaving F1) are coming back to Champ Car. These fans are critical to our event."
He said they represent about 30 percent of the race's fan foundation.
But that other 70 percent is just as important. It's what made the Grand Prix a party as much as a race and has allowed it to avoid problems. "Our approach is different," he continued. "We don't isolate on just the race. We will add anything to the program, from motorcycles to skateboarding to music, to make it better.
"We put on a great show (in CART's best days), and we put on a great show now. It's just different. We find every opportunity we can to evolve."
In the open-wheel world, they appear to be the only ones.
http://www.presstelegram.com/sports/ci_6867104
What I don`t understand is how paper beats rock. :D
What is so hard to understand is the question we ask as those who want the greatest series to be dead continue to ignoar the truth of what we desire as we keep our world series alive and the product that is the best going forewards for those who believe like those true fans of real racing in Assen. You did see at that one great race proof of what we believe and seek for the future becuse nothing has stopped our great product since 1909 not FTG or the OT cartel of those who follow the family from the state I send this message to all here from or a little man who thinks the world is his but we have proven him wrong in Assen so he will stop nowhere to stop us from what we all desire as we keep the series alive with the faith of those i speak to who see our faith and say puck the doubters and puck the grandson and his poeple who seek to destroy what is right what is so hard to understand?
Huh? Do you hear voices or are dogs talking to you? Aren't you lost and on the wrong site or are you just goofing on us? Probably. But if not, I think I know who you are and you make as much sense as usual. From what I have seen this season, you must be the savant advising Champ Car on their schedule, PR and marketing. Since you have a direct link to the "ones with the plan", could you please tell them that it sucks so far. It is time for a different plan and no more of their silly Plan 9 From Outer Space. Also tell them to read John Orevicz’s latest on ESPN.com:Quote:
Originally Posted by Papyrus
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/column...ohn&id=3016350
He writes:
“Some races that survived the CART bankruptcy lasted five or six years, like Denver, Montreal and Monterrey, Mexico. But they're the exception to the rule and they are all off the Champ Car schedule now. In all, whopping 13 events have come and gone since Y2K, including traditional stalwarts like Milwaukee.
And that number doesn't even include non-starters like Korea, China and Phoenix. Or the Hawaiian Super Prix, for that matter.”
So Papyrus, we should “***** doubt” eh? There are more races gone in this century than will likely be on Champ Car's schedule in 2008, if in fact, there is a 2008 Champ Car season.
Well I can’t ***** Doubt any longer. Commander Kevster’s latest version of what Champ Car’s “plan” is smacks of desperation and strains credibility:
“We've learned that Europe really likes us, so we'll push on there, and we've learned that there are other parts of the world where, as Formula 1 departs, they have a great interest.”
Okay. Papyrus, please tell Commander Kevster, I agree that there are some people who may have great interest in other parts of the world in Champ Car (I hear we are big in Poland and Paraguay too) but what about here in the USA? Your new plan will only diminish interest and remove whatever scant credibility remains for our once proud series.
Like Papyrus, I speak with those who know and it is looking more likely that Champ Car may soon lose several of top teams to other series that run the majority of their races in the USA. If that happens, where are the new teams coming from to replace the 4-6 cars they will be gone?
A1GP?
Formula Holden?
World of Outlaws? Actually, that would be fitting.
Fear spreads like fire and I can feel it in a Champ Car paddock these days as strongly as I felt it in the last days of CART. Several of Champ Car’s current team owners have seen it all before. I now suspect that in light of recent events, common sense and survival instincts are now kicking into overdrive and these team owners will deflect Commander Kevster’s Spinton torpedoes and ignore his Farce Shields as they fight for a more stable future elsewhere.
Which begs the question: what is Champ Car anyway?
Is it events that are preserved from the collapse of CART? Maybe, but only eight races remain from the 20 race 2003 schedule: Long Beach, Monterey, Portland (doubtful), Cleveland, Road America, Toronto, Surfers (which is still referred to as “Indy” in the logo and by the locals) and Mexico City.
Is it American? Doubtful, there are only two American drivers in the series and only four or five races now likely on American soil in 2008.
Is it the rightful successor to the American National Championship previously sanctioned by AAA, USAC and CART? That is a stretch these days since the vast majority of the races held in this championship over the prior 98 years have been oval tracks and they have been in the USA. There are no ovals in Champ Car any longer and with only 4-5 likely races in the USA in 2008 I can’t see it. In 2007, The IRL had 16 of 17 races in the USA they raced 12 times on ovals. This obviously includes Indy which also held the first two oval races in the inaugural year of American National Championship in 1909 which Champ Car so often claims as its heritage. The IRL also now has St. Pete, Mid-Ohio Sears Point, Watkins Glen and Belle Isle – all of which held either USAC or CART races previously. Consider what happens to this claimed heritage if several of ChampCar’s traditional races die or move to the dark side?
Is it the teams? How many are left from the CART era that gave the sport its identity? Newman/Haas/Lanigan, Forsythe, Walker, Coyne and Conquest. The IRL has Penske, Ganassi, Andretti/Green and Rahal/Letterman. If 2-3 of ChampCar’s core teams depart for “greener” pastures, what is left?
Is it the fans? Well, some of us are still here but true attendance at all the races I have been to is not encouraging. Ditto for the TV ratings.
Is it the sponsors? What sponsors? McDonalds and Pay By Touch? Hey, CDW, thanks for stopping by on your way to somewhere else! Too bad the folks at Motorock and Lexington energy never would buy anything. Did you try iRise? I hear they need some mouse pads.
Is it the manufacturers? Mazda in the Atlantic series counts for something but no, Champ Car is not a major league series without manufacturer involvement at the top level.
Is it the Cars? Ten years ago there were 26-28 cars representing five different world-class chassis manufacturers: Reynard, Lola, Penske, Swift and Eagle. These cars were perhaps the most beautiful race cars in the world. Today we have 17 semi tatty spec cars built by an IRL chassis supplier. When you have seen one, you have seen them all.
So just what is Champ Car now?
The answer to that question gives a clue to what happens next.
CART is dead.
ovals are not necessary to CC.
Every series changes and gets rid of events every series. F1 has ,ALMS has Grand Am, Nascar does, every major series evolves and changes. These series have been around longer too. CC doesn't have to keep events that aren't working ,just to look good to the press. CC has 4 years, its a work in progress.
While nascar continues to recruit foreign drivers to make themselves international, CC is already there. Good drivers ,american or not.
CC is not challenged by the departure of a manufacturer, cosworth is there.
Fans ,enough said. San Jose is sorry to see their GP go.Cleveland and RA are back.
The car is great and the best decision the owners made.
It's about the racing and the racing is good.
CC is put under a microscope for things other series do all the time. It's not a sign of failure ,its changing to make it better,just like any series does.
Everyone just cares so much more about CC. It's great.
In the history of sports there have been many teams that fail every year but their fans never give up. (The Chicago Cub and Cleveland Browns fans come to mind.) For those fans it's always the next game and as the year goes on there is always next year.
Then there are the fair weather fans that only come out and support their team when the team is A WINNING TEAM.
Then there are the ONLY IF FANS. I will support the team ONLY IF THEY ( go to my favorite race track, secure my American driver)
Then there are fans that are not fans at all but show up and claim to be fans when they are given something for free. A free race day ticket or an invitation to hospitality tent or as simple as free TV.
Then there are those Debbie Downer fans that have an impulse to find the negative side of every positive issue and expand negative issues to a dooms day downer.
Then there are fans who will buy a three day weekend ticket the first day tickets are sold. They purchase those tickets, without qualification. They purchase tickets in many cases before teams, drivers and the rest of the schedule is set. They purchase ticket for the love of the series.
Huh? Who actually believes this delusional spin anymore? This is like saying Ford's purchase of Jaguar is a success because people still buy the cars. You and Papyrus should hook up and see if you can get a discount on Kool Aid by buying in bulk quantities.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
I see evidence that the DP1 was anything but "the best decision the owners made". 17 cars and only one new team (sorry mate, Minardi USA doesn't count).
Fans, enough said? Huh? How can you actually believe that? Our races are bombing at the gate and on TV at home. Phoenix sold something like 1000 tickets. Vegas had well less than 20k on the grounds on race day despite a flood of free tickets in town. San Jose was JDS/Uniphase on wheels for the promoter. Ditto for Denver, which I hear, actually sold less than 20k total tickets for the entire weekend in 2006. Portland had well less than 15K on race day. Mexico now has less than half the seats it had in 2003. Okay, we are big in Holland and Australia... but in the later case, the event was built by a combination of having CART, the brand Indy and the V-8 series. The TV ratings are barely measurable when we can get on TV. People aren't as dumb as you need them to be to keep your fantasy world alive.
So, you believe “It's about the racing and the racing is good.”
I live in the real world where results count so I actually believe it is really about something else that matters far more:
Credibility.
1. capable of being believed; believable: a credible statement.
2. worthy of belief or confidence; trustworthy: a credible witness.
—Synonyms 1. plausible, likely, reasonable, tenable.
The lack of credibility is the real reason our series is constantly under a microscope. It now takes the best micorscope money can buy to find any faint trace of that once abundant element that is so crucial to success. What tiny credibility there was left this summer has evaporated in the past two weeks and all I can see now (even without a microscope) are failures, embarrassments, lies, rationalizations and desperation. How the hell do we build anything that will last with those elements?
What about the rest of the events?
Mexico does over 100k weekend
Vegas had 40k on race day
Denver did over 100k weekend
San Jose over 80k weekend
Portland over 70k weekend
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/N...e.asp?ID=11978Quote:
CHAMP CAR WELCOMES ONE MILLIONTH FAN IN SAN JOSE
Saturday, July 28, 2007
Champ Car World Series shows growth in several areas through first half of 2007
SAN JOSE (July 28, 2007) - The Champ Car World Series honored its one millionth fan of the 2007 season at the San Jose Grand Prix at Redback Raceway today, an early milestone for the Series due to attendance being up 16% this year.
Storm Vanderzee, John Walsh and family, who are attending the race weekend together, were showered with confetti and greeted by Champ Car personalities as they entered the turnstile. After television crews and photographers captured the special moment, they were whisked away to the Champ Car suite, where they watched the highly competitive 2007 Champ Car field prepare for today's qualifying session, and headed to the paddock for lunch at the hospitality area of the Canadian Triple Crown winning team of Team Australia. The group ate with the crew, team owner Derrick Walker and drivers Simon Pagenaud and Will Power, who is involved in a tight battle for the Championship lead, where the top-four drivers are within 29 points of each other.
The milestone reached this weekend reflects the Champ Car World Series' improved performance to date in 2007. Not only is attendance up but more fans have been tuning into the race broadcasts this year in order to follow the budding rivalry between Sebastien Bourdais and Robert Doornbos, the emergence as Team Australia as one of the top teams, or to see which rookie will make it on the podium. Television viewership is up 11 percent over 7 races this year compared to 2006.
Sanguin,
Vegas did not have 40K on Race Day. The grandstands at the time only held a maximum of 20K seats and they were at best 75% full. Furthermore if there were 5k people in general admission walking around, there were a lot!
I admire your positive attitude, but you also need to have a balanced view of the current state of the series. I love the series too, but there are more negative things occurring than positive.
I agree that series evolve and change and CCWS are doing that as well. However, anyone looking at this from a purely analytical point of view can see that the changes are reactive rather then proactive. There isn't a coherent plan or structure. I would dearly like to see the leaders of CCWS prodcuce a plan.
Oh, please this is like shooting fish in a freakin' barrel. Of those five, one didn't happen THIS year (Denver), one more (SJ) is gone for SURE next year and two more (Vegas and Portland) are reported to be iffy.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Come on sanguin, you are making the rest of us "pom pom" wavers look bad by this continued idiocy.
Gary
Sanguin, we all know you believe anything that the OWRS 'leaders" want you to believe. For all we know, you are one of them! Unfortunately for you, those of us with common sense know the truth especially if we also know the event promoters. We also now have vivid proof that anything in a CCWS press release is highly suspect.
Here is the reality check that most people get but you won't accept:
"Mexico does over 100k weekend". A stretch at best and the numbers are clearly trending downward. Vast sections of seating are no longer used. Sponsorship is down and now we have the cynical ploy of dropping David Martinez in a car to prop up this sick event at the expense of Oriol Servia who deserves better given how he has performed this season.
"Vegas had 40k on race day". I guess you are counting the homeless living near the circuit and the people inside the hotels and casinos who really wished there wasn't a "3-day Festival of Speed" ruining their Easter weekend. The truth is that there were 20,000 seats and very few viable general admission spectator areas. The 12,000 seats that were on the front straight were 65-70 percent full at best. The parking structure everyone raves about holding large numbers of fans did not hold 25,000. If this event was so boffo, why is it likely going away? The answer dear Sanguin is losses created by lack of sponsorship and not enough attendance.
"Denver did over 100k weekend". I hear from several trusted sources that there were less than 20,000 total tickets sold in 2006. This was 10,000 off the prior year as a result of the corporate buys being down since the sponsor was in their death throes. At best, the weekend saw 35K. It is dead now, as you well know, killed by losses created by lack of enough sponsorship and attendance not for the bogus mumbo jumbo in Champ Car's press release on the matter.
"San Jose over 80k weekend". I am told by other very good sources that the number is 25% less and that the same old story applied there: It is dead now as you well know, killed by losses created by lack of enough sponsorship and attendance not for the bogus mumbo jumbo in Champ Car's press release of this past Tuesday. At least the promoter in Phoenix had the decency to tell the truth on why he cancelled the Champ Car season finale: “An event of this magnitude requires considerable corporate support and though we did establish some outstanding partnerships, there were simply not enough of these to create economic viability,” said Dale Jensen, owner and managing member of the sports property.
"Portland over 70k weekend". This is simply absurd. 40k would be a generous estimate. It is probably dead now, as you well know, unless Champ Car dips into all those mythical profits you like to tout. If it goes away, it will have been killed by losses created by lack of enough sponsorship and attendance, which is for once, reflected in Champ Car's numerous official statements on this subject:
http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/ore...l=7&thispage=1
Back to you Baghdad Sanguin!
The hidden trumps (or at least we may consider as trumps) of CCWS are:
- safety - quite more than IRL definitely because of lack of ovals
- no ovals , road/street circuits only - definitely a lot of drivers prefer not to race on ovals because find them 'someway easy', not challenging enough.
- more freedom in technical rules
So now arises the question - which is better - IRL with two of exotics - ovals and street circuits or CCWS with one (streets). So the question is around ovals - should they be or not.
Of course my opinion is that it's better for a series to have ovals - superovals , 3 superspeedways on the schedule (Michigan, Fontana, ...and ..i do'know) but safety ?!? ; and attendance ,even the best races like Michigan 2000 were not so very well attended, a 1/4 empty stands would be sad. I think - if there to be ovals - they should be superspeedways. But anyway - will the owners "allow" such a CCWS races to be held there (and if yes - for what a price :) )
The fact of the matter is most of us here are getting tired of holding the flag, much less wave it. The flag is supposed to stand for something, and KK et al have let it fade to the point where it symbolizes almost nothing.
I'm angry because of that, but even more than angry, I'm saddened and ashamed that the series I've followed for many years, and pulled for through thick and thin, seems to be going out with a whimper. I know it's not gone yet, it's sure looking like it'll be hard to answer the bell for '08.
Quote:
<H3 id=poemTitle>The Hollow Men
</H3> :(Quote:
T. S. Eliot
Mistah Kurtz—he dead. A penny for the Old Guy IWe are the hollow menWe are the stuffed menLeaning togetherHeadpiece filled with straw. Alas!Our dried voices, whenWe whisper togetherAre quiet and meaninglessAs wind in dry grassOr rats’ feet over broken glassIn our dry cellarShape without form, shade without colour,Paralysed force, gesture without motion;Those who have crossedWith direct eyes, to death’s other KingdomRemember us—if at all—not as lostViolent souls, but onlyAs the hollow menThe stuffed men. IIEyes I dare not meet in dreamsIn death’s dream kingdomThese do not appear:There, the eyes areSunlight on a broken columnThere, is a tree swingingAnd voices areIn the wind’s singingMore distant and more solemnThan a fading star.Let me be no nearerIn death’s dream kingdomLet me also wearSuch deliberate disguisesRat’s coat, crowskin, crossed stavesIn a fieldBehaving as the wind behavesNo nearer—Not that final meetingIn the twilight kingdom IIIThis is the dead landThis is cactus landHere the stone imagesAre raised, here they receiveThe supplication of a dead man’s handUnder the twinkle of a fading star.Is it like thisIn death’s other kingdomWaking aloneAt the hour when we areTrembling with tendernessLips that would kissForm prayers to broken stone. IVThe eyes are not hereThere are no eyes hereIn this valley of dying starsIn this hollow valleyThis broken jaw of our lost kingdomsIn this last of meeting placesWe grope togetherAnd avoid speechGathered on this beach of the tumid riverSightless, unlessThe eyes reappearAs the perpetual starMultifoliate roseOf death’s twilight kingdomThe hope onlyOf empty men. VHere we go round the prickly pearPrickly pear prickly pearHere we go round the prickly pearAt five o’clock in the morning.Between the ideaAnd the realityBetween the motionAnd the actFalls the Shadow For Thine is the KingdomBetween the conceptionAnd the creationBetween the emotionAnd the responseFalls the Shadow Life is very longBetween the desireAnd the spasmBetween the potencyAnd the existenceBetween the essenceAnd the descentFalls the Shadow For Thine is the KingdomFor Thine isLife isFor Thine is theThis is the way the world endsThis is the way the world endsThis is the way the world endsNot with a bang but a whimper.
Why? because they're changing the schedule?Quote:
Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins
They just announced Spring training
Announced a new venue
There are still solid events
They still have cosworth
Atlantics
Tv contract
New drivers are interested.
The Owners committed to the series. 2008 is not an issue.
Have you seen what's going on in F1? Besides all the tracks they dumped, they have a spy case going on. Manufacturers could be out for the season.
Teams go under and get sold every year.The drivers come and go.Compared to their dramas, CC 's are nothing.
The owners say their committed, and I sure want to believe them. I have a habit of sticking around anyway just to see how things turn out, but as I've said, my confidence is falling.
IMO, businesses don't really operate on money--they operate on confidence. If customers have confidence that the company will be there, and do what they say they'll do, then the customers will buy what the company's selling. If customers don't have that confidence, they won't buy, and the company goes out of business.
Remember the old 70s show "Barney Miller"? There was an episode where some kid was brought into the station, and he'd been dealing drugs or something, and had a huge wad of cash. Det Harris (Ron Glass) told the kid, "You've got a lot of money, but I've got something you'll never have." "What's that?" the kid asked. Harris said, "Credit!"
Thanks brother Sanguin your stating the obveious that all true fans in the world see for what it is,,, all you write is so right on and the ones who are working the plan see this and will not give in to those who want our series dead so that they can have what we have built with great pain against their efforts to kill our spirits which will not be killed by FTG or BE or the little France. F1 will now begin the fall that all true fans see it and our great series will be in the world to pick up all the races and the true fans,,, the racing is good,,, we have fans,,, the others don't,,, whats so hard to understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
I look at it this way. They bought Toronto and LB to secure them for the series.They invested in a new car and revived the feeder series. They secured a tv contract. They invested 15 million on a new car for CC. The fan base is there and they listen to the fans and get tracks back like RA and LS. Just because some are jealous and want to tear it down ,doesn't diminish what is already there.Quote:
Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins
It's about the racing and the racing is good!
:)
Harris even lost that eventually, when his book deal went south. But instead of feeling sorry for himself, after a stern talking to by Miller, he got back on the train again and worked harder. Which is what The Amigos need to do. they've got the cash, but due to a lot of bad judgement lately, they've lost a lot of credit. They need to reverse that, and soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins
Well, I think there is more to the real story and I look at it this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Long Beach and Toronto are essential to the series survival. Without those two events under the control of the OWRS owners they would probably be either IRL races by now or out of business because Champ Car has no economy at the moment. Recent events prove this and unless there is a realistic plan to confront that reality it is all but over.
The OWRS owners did not "invest in a new Atlantic car". The manufacturer and the series entrants did. Yes, they did post a $2 million dollar prize for the series champion but that is money that they would have had to pay to someone anyhow to fill the field so, why not? Don't underestimate the contribution Mazda and Cooper Tires make here either to both the Atlantic Series and to ChampCar overall. It is less about dollars than it is about credibility. Atlantic is its own well run eco system and it is healthier than its larger sibling.
The oft-mentioned TV Contract that was supposed to be our salvation has been anything but. By direct comparison with the IRL we look like losers now. It is also a very expensive time buy which so far has delivered value far below its cost. I did not think a zero rating was possible until the two European races proved it on ESPN Classic. Still, ABC an ESPN are better than what we had before on the NASCAR Channel but this is still a losing proposition.
As far as the owners "investing $15 Million in new a new car", I sincerely doubt that. Like in Atlantic, the manufacturer and the series entrants made the investments and from what I can see the manufacturer must be disappointed at the low car count and total number of cars sold which had to have fallen below all the bold promises of one year ago.
As far as Road America and Laguna Seca being back on the schedule, I think this has more to do with having nowhere else to race on American soil as it does with listening to us fans. If they had listened to most of us, they would have never left these beautiful permanent circuits in the first place (this really bothers me). What's more I hear that they are now coming back to these tracks that they dumped as something akin to a free support show for ALMS and Grand-Am just like they did with in Las Vegas where they were a support show for NASCAR Craftsman Trucks. That, my friends, is the fast lane to oblivion.
Then there is the fan base. If we have such a big and powerful fan base where are all of us when the series needs us most? People aren't watching our races on TV and they are not coming to our races in numbers sufficient to keep the majority of our events viable. Something does not add up... just like Motorock, Korea, China, Phoenix, San Jose and soon, Vegas.
Finally, you mention jealousy as a root motivation for all the strife. A rational person can clearly see it is something else: It is about ego, power and control. So far our guys are 90 points behind with 2 minutes left in the fourth quarter of the Ego Bowl. It doesn't look good but we don't need to lose everything to prove how all-knowing and superior a few brave billionaires are compared to the rest of us peasants. IMHO, the OWRS owners just need to get real and let us all get on with one series and stop this sad charade. I really can't see any other way. I suspect I am not alone in feeling this way.
Let's put it all into perspective. The 100 million dollar fine levied against McLaren today by the FIA could probably buy any major racing series in the world outside of NASCAR. This number probably only represents 1/6th or less of McLaren's total annual turnover. What we are all arguing about is penny on the sidewalk to these guys. They wouldn't even bother to bend over to pick it up, let alone notice it. To see posts that perpetuate the fantasy that ChampCar is somehow a viable challenger to F1 is amusing. Please get over yourselves!
You still think it's about the racing and the racing is good but the world is voting with eyeballs, feet and wallets and it doesn't look promising. What's so hard to understand?
Earth to Kalkhoven! Earth to Kalkhoven! Plan 9 From Outer Space has failed. Commander Kevster, please come in. Do you copy? Please hold your fire. You are hitting your own series with stray Spintron torpedoes. We have severe damage on all decks and the crew is beaming down to planet Vison. Come in Commander Kevster!!! Aren't Privates Sanguin and Papyrus passing along our distress messages? We are falling out of orbit and our Uniphasers have gone dead... The Farce Shields are down again! May Day! May Dayyyyy!
I think ABC/ESPN was a good idea (I think staying on SPEED would've been good too, but not everybody gets SPEED). However, the fact that the IRL gets shifted around from ABC to ESPN, ESPN2 doesn't seem to hurt it as much as it does Champ Car, because the network combo throws ESPN Classic into the mix, which is harder to find. Plus, Champ Car doesn't get nearly the promotion that the IRL does, which gets promoted on Champ Car shows! If I were The Amigos, I would have specified no shows on ESPN Classic. New races looking to increase its audience doesn't seem a good fit for ESPN Classic, but that's just me.
From ChainWitz:
As far as Road America and Laguna Seca being back on the schedule, I think this has more to do with having nowhere else to race on American soil as it does with listening to us fans. If they had listened to most of us, they would have never left these beautiful permanent circuits in the first place (this really bothers me). What's more I hear that they are now coming back to these tracks that they dumped as something akin to a free support show for ALMS and Grand-Am just like they did with in Las Vegas where they were a support show for NASCAR Craftsman Trucks. That, my friends, is the fast lane to oblivion.
A very astute observation. Many people on this forum seem to be reaching a simultaneous conclusion that the concept of bringing the race to the urban environment is having inconsistent success. What works in somes cities does not spell across the board success. With the ALMS and Grand AM (another split in racing, but apparently not nearly on the same hostile level as the one
in open wheel, they have stayed true to their mission and both are growing at a steady rate, with multiple manufacturer involvement and great driving talent from all over the world. And yet, both series have American talent competing against all these foriegn drivers; Americans like Scott Pruett in Grand AM and Byran Herta in ALMS, with occasional cameos by NASCAR drivers like Jeff Gordon and Carl Edwards, which also draws interest in the series. It's not the IRL that shares so much with the old CART, it's the ALMS and Grand AM. I think opwn wheel still holds an allure, but there is no denying the high car counts and driver line-ups in sportscar racing right now.
Once more, from ChaimWitz:
You still think it's about the racing and the racing is good but the world is voting with eyeballs, feet and wallets and it doesn't look promising. What's so hard to understand?
As much as as the lack of promotion and chaotic nature of announced venues only to be cancelled is having an affect on open wheel racing, it's the split itself that's keeping the fans away. As I have responded to anyone who's asked me, whenever you have this type of upheaval in a sport, the fans fade and stay away until the matter is resolved. The split in AOWR isn't resolved yet. And people are sick of it. We all in here are sick of it. And no matter what the perception is on who is on top in this split, or who won, or who has the most cars or the biggest race, or the most paying sponsors, it doesn't make any difference. The only way either series will get any of of their fans back in any great numbers -- if that is even possible at this point --, is to get back together. Resolve it this way, and just like NFL Football, Major League Baseball, and NHL Hockey (albeit more slowly), Open Wheel Racing stands a good chance to come back.
That's what should happen next.
sanguine,Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
There’s a process that large corporations go through from time to time called “product viability assessment,” and one element of this is basically asking the question: knowing what we know today, would we launch this product/product-line/service/brand?
Part of the process, and the major reason it’s used is because oftentimes, department or product managers get so wrapped up in making their product-line successful - they can sometimes lose sight of the product’s “viability” in the marketplace.
The whole thing can be very productive when it’s handled by an objective or third-party entity, simply because the emotion and personal interests are factored out of the equation.
Sifting through all the opinions, emotions and whatnot, you get to a point where you ask: knowing what we know now, is CCWS economically viable?
-John
CCWS promotions might have lack of credibility. There certainly are negative things that can be said. But If CC folded tomorrow I would still be blindsided because there is no reason to believe that is going to happen - reason being you guys constantly posting all the negativity don't have any better credibility. For life of me I dont understand why if things are so bad people can't stick to the facts when complaining. Don't you understand if there is an actual problem then sticking to the truth is more effective argument then rediculous exagerations and complaints.
Just as one example of what I mean. If people argued the logistics of Vegas wasnt working and it is too expensive and complicted to setup the event, so it wont be back, well that would actually be a believable problem based on the facts of how Vegas turned out. Instead naysayers promote the total nonsense that the event wasnt actually well attended. Fiction. I was there, the biggest problems were logistics, long lines and overcrowding.
There are real problems with CC no doubt, but things like this make most of the posts in threads like this have absoloutly no credibility. You cant even get what is wrong right.
Okay, CCWS77, believe what you want but the facts don't lie. There were only 20,000 spectator seats plus 800 hospitality seats at the Vegas GP. It wasn't sold out which you could plainly see in person and on TV. As for the "overcrowding", that was a result of poor planning and logistics that made getting to and from the event a hassle. There was originally a plan for a pedestrian bridge that would have made this issue go away but this bridge crossed railroad tracks and the organizers failed to contact the appropriate federal agencies in time so they were not permitted to erect them.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
As for the other "doom and gloom" on this board, I think the facts again speak for themselves. There is a pattern here. What is posted as "negative speculation" all to often soon becomes grim reality. Some on these boards choose to live in denial, others, like me, get angry at having been lied to and led on, some chose to shoot the messenger rather than heed the message and a few troll and probably delight at our misery. Regardless, this is a very sad time and more very bad news is most certainly coming. Be ready for it.
The name of this thread is "what happens next" and the truth is I live in dread of it when it comes to Champ Car. There are hints elsewhere on these boards that fit with what I am hearing from people who are connected, savvy and have been far more right than wrong so far when it comes to the Champ Car's true circumstances.
Every day brings me closer to a conclusion that there will be one series sooner rather than later. I used to think it would be CART, then Champ Car that would prevail in this battle for the heart and soul of our sport. Like most of you here, I believed we held the moral high ground and we all had been wronged soley by Tony George and what he has done to our once great sport. Now I see things differently. After, Jerkin' Joe, the Pookster and now "The Amigos", the blame is now on both sides equally and the pain is felt by all who love this sport. The path we are on now is exactly what TG and his people were probably worried about. They should have been. Because "our strategy" doesn't make sense and it isn't working. Okay, we all say, “but.. but .. but… CART was great! He killed it! “ Well, Champ Car could have been great and the OWRS owners are killing it from what are now seeing. But this isn’t about all that old baggage anymore. It is about the overall survival of the sport. Chapparral66 said it best:
“The split in AOWR isn't resolved yet. And people are sick of it. We all in here are sick of it. And no matter what the perception is on who is on top in this split, or who won, or who has the most cars or the biggest race, or the most paying sponsors, it doesn't make any difference. The only way either series will get any of their fans back in any great numbers -- if that is even possible at this point --, is to get back together. Resolve it this way, and just like NFL Football, Major League Baseball, and NHL Hockey (albeit more slowly), Open Wheel Racing stands a good chance to come back.
That's what should happen next.”
Amen Chapparrall66. Amen.
Yes, we all need to think about what happens next. There will surely be other events that will shake what little faith we have left but, as we have seen, many posters here are devoted fans who will hang on to the bitter end and I respect that. On the other hand, please imagine what all this does to ChampCar's already awful business climate. I have lived that reality and it is beyond depressing. No amount of fanatical cheerleading can erase the fact that far more money goes out the door than comes in the door when one is involved with ChampCar as a "business".
This year now proves to me and others I know who are promoters, team owners, drivers and sponsors that there is simply no hope of Champcar's business climate changing for the positive so, being a realist, I have to ask: what is the point of this going forward? If Kevin, Gerry, Dan or Paul read these boards I hope they are asking themselves that question and they do the right thing. If you guys are indeed reading this, I just want to say thank for trying and thanks for the good things that you have done. I also want to say that it is clear that you need to put aside your egos and the dream of taking down TG and challenging Bernie. If the first guy is kicking your arse, how the hell are going to take on the guy in London?
Many of you here are saying to yourself, yeah, yeah, yeah, ChaimWitz, heard it all before but who the hell are you and what the hell do you know that we don't? Chaim, all you post here is baseless speculation and all that matters is that the racing is good. (Sanguin, I wrote this paragraph to save you the time and trouble since you have been so busy lately trying to extinguish doubt on these boards).
Okay, whatever! Just realize that there are now far more people who ask themselves this question: "Geeezzz, this does not look good... what the hell is next for Champ Car?
HAHA!!! Dude, you make me laugh!Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
good postQuote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
Here's a quote- "Attendance at the inaugural 2007 event was estimated to be 40,000 fans on race day. This surpassed the amount of seats available on the course's temporary grandstands facilitating an expansion for the 2008 season." That's not counting friday or saturday. While so called "insiders" can only "speculate". The promoter was happy with the event.
Regardless how much D&G they try to spin, in the end ,other series want CC events ,CC teams ,CC drivers, CC fans. The foundation is there, events, car ,engine, feeder series and that's not going away. All this makes CC viable.
The promoter tried to sell the press on the idea that there were 80,000 there on race day too. They are still laughing at that and the 40,000 number they eventually gave out. Anyhow, believe what you will Sanguin... but there were many empty seats in the 12.000 seat stands across from the pits and the remaining grandstands, in most cases these held approximately 500 people each. There were simply not enough of them to make it work. I know many in the media and they openly scoff at man in charge of the event and they also know that Vegas was a huge loser for the promoter and it won’t be back… as a Champ Car race.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
But you are here to keep a finger in the dike so reality won’t come pouring in. So I suspect that the posts here must bug you because you probably know the truth and you are asking yourself who are these people and how the hell do they know these things? (Time to attack our credibility now? bla, bla, bla).
My guess is that you work for OWRS in some fashion or that you are one of the Internet "experts" we all know Kalkhoven and Gentilozzi confide in. If so, say hi to both and tell them the truth is out there and it is now impossible to stop people from seeing it.
Please share with us, just why is it so important to deny the truth and the reality of the situation anyhow? If OWRS were attempting to address their situation, a rational person would expect honesty and communication. All we seem to get is reactive spin and delusional justification of things that can't really be justified from the Amigos, ChampCar’s management and people like you. Why? Just what are you and these guys trying to hide?
Sanguin, I agree that there are still great things about Champ Car. What we disagree about is what should be done with them. I am deeply worried that these remaining positives will be burned at the altar of the Amigo's egos. So, to me, staying the course is doomed to certain failure. This just sickens me.
I think most of the few people left who care now realize without a doubt, that one series is the only hope and that, in the end, that one series will not be called ChampCar. I am sure that you and the OWRS owners want another outcome. I want to be an Astronaut too. Neither is gonna happen.
Ground control to Commander Kevster. Come in Commander Kevster... Your five year mission to seek out brave new markets for the CART Ship Champ Car has been terminated due to lack of results. Please return to base and turn in your Uniphaser. I am sorry but your deposit will not be refunded. But, since you have paid your dues, you still have a chance to be a leading promoter, an engine supplier, and a team owner in a vibrant unified series ... but only if you return to Earth now. Do you copy, Commander Kevster? Do you copy?
What is doomed to fail? A business plan that depends on the failure or killing off of another series.
I think the women wearing the ChampCar spandex suits are damn fine looking. In fact, I am positive of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
In particular, I would like to ask the women holding the Neel Jani marker in this photo http://www.champcarworldseries.com/C...0831P_0105.jpg a question regarding her family tree.
Excellent. Everybody, let's agree to meet back here in 37 days. I'll bring some nacho chips, Indycool can I put you down for salsa? Anyone have a good recipie for deviled eggs? Who can bring the pretzels?Quote:
This board is for ChampCar fans to discuss among themselves the series and racing which they like.
Inquiring minds would like to know whether this is unsolicited professional advice or a statement made ex cathedra? I would hate to think that a bona-fide insider (a status yet to be confirmed regarding ChaimWitz and thus must be accepted with a copious quantity of sodium chloride) would be encouraged to not participate.Quote:
If you are, as you've claimed, a person involved in the series this is also not the place to air your personal concerns. I'd suggest a phone call to one or all of the principles instead.