Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

I doubt we will ever find out the details of what went on. With at least 2 judicial systems involved, one been rather slow to say the least, and the very real possibility of extradition being required it is going to take years.
As far as the photo copy story goes I would expect Italy has shops available with high speed copiers where you do the copying and then pay based on # of copies made. (ie Staples) Again how would Nigel get hundreds of pages of documents out of the factory if he was being watched that closely. Computer discs maybe but then you would burn your own copy and send or deliver that. Papers? Unlikely in this tech driven world.
Again I expect this to drag on for years.

We will know more tomorrow:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60679

I strongly favour the "Lotsa Weird Rumours" approach to keep this discussion alive; otherwise, the fact that it will drag on for years will make us all die of boredom just reading the same old tripe. :(

I doubt that... I think somebody is losing their reputation over this...

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

I doubt that... I think somebody is losing their reputation over this...

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Hey!! I'm trying my best with the crazy rumours - I even saw Elvis involved. What more can I do :(

I'm really looking forward to tomorrow (or is it next Tuesday?) so we can get some real insight into this matter. It's interesting that Coughlan and "another" person were listed on the complaint. Who is this "other" person? Hopefully we'll find out tomorrow.

Personally, I think this whole thing was created by Jeremy Clarkson!!!!

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I strongly favour the "Lotsa Weird Rumours" approach to keep this discussion alive; otherwise, the fact that it will drag on for years will make us all die of boredom just reading the same old tripe. :(

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It really could be all as simple as Nick Fry has said:

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"I think people love the conspiracy theories and whatever, but to me they were just two guys who wanted a job."

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I only said could though :D

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

It really could be all as simple as Nick Fry has said:

I only said could though :D

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Either Honda or McLaren will have some explanations to give to the FIA in the end.
Both Nick and Ron are behaving strangely lately.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Either Honda or McLaren will have some explanations to give to the FIA in the end.

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According to Max Mosley:

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"There is no suggestion that Honda are in any way involved in this business."

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60681

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Originally Posted by ioan

And believing that Ferrari want to harm him doesn't make you a Ferrari hater? :rolleyes:

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did I suggest they would?????????

If you cannot be bothered to read my posts then dont bother to respond either.

I have said that I find the accusation that Ferrari are in some way trying to fit Nigel up as incredible but that I will also wait until the full facts are out.

If anything, you are the one suggesting that Ferrari would do him in before it became public and starting legal proceedings.

all I said was that I find it incredible that Ferrari would be involved in something like this the same way as I would find it incredible that McLaren would. your the one saying your not sure that Nigel is in danger from Ferrari.

Are you some sort of Ferrari hater :p :

get the chip off your shoulder and actually read what people write otherwise you look stupid.

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's what he said in his interview Saturday, who knows if he is really in danger.
Or do you think that Ferrari would try to harm him now when everything is public, if that was their aim they could have done it before starting elagl procedures against him?

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

did I suggest they would?????????

If you cannot be bothered to read my posts then dont bother to respond either.

I have said that I find the accusation that Ferrari are in some way trying to fit Nigel up as incredible but that I will also wait until the full facts are out.

If anything, you are the one suggesting that Ferrari would do him in before it became public and starting legal proceedings.

all I said was that I find it incredible that Ferrari would be involved in something like this the same way as I would find it incredible that McLaren would. your the one saying your not sure that Nigel is in danger from Ferrari.

Are you some sort of Ferrari hater :p :

get the chip off your shoulder and actually read what people write otherwise you look stupid.

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Don't twist it, you implied that Stepney was right to flee because of the danger. Or you suggest that you don't even understand what you write? At least that's what seems to be the case.

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The court hearing into the spy scandal surrounding Ferrari and McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan has been adjourned until tomorrow following a preliminary hearing in London's High Court today.

But despite reaching no firm conclusions this morning, the hearing did at least confirm some of the facts in the case.

Ferrari's action is being taken against Coughlan and his wife Trudy Coughlan, who is now alleged to have taken the 780-page Ferrari document at the centre of the controversy to a photocopying shop near Woking to be reproduced.

It was a staff member from the photocopying shop who tipped off Ferrari about the matter when they saw that the documents were confidential and belonged to the Maranello team.

The hearing also confirmed that McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale was aware that Coughlan had the documents.

However, there was no definitive answer on whether Neale was told about the situation before Ferrari's legal action against the Coughlan's began or after.

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60690

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Originally Posted by ioan

Don't twist it, you implied that Stepney was right to flee because of the danger. Or you suggest that you don't even understand what you write? At least that's what seems to be the case.

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Neither Flat.tyres nor Stepney said anything about Ferrari being threatening, perhaps you should stop trying to read between the lines so much. ;)
As Tamburello said, there are enough loonies in Italy without the team being involved.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

Neither Flat.tyres nor Stepney said anything about Ferrari being threatening, perhaps you should stop trying to read between the lines so much. ;)
As Tamburello said, there are enough loonies in Italy without the team being involved.

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Now wait a minute - the Pope ain't gonna like that!!

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Originally Posted by ioan

Don't twist it, you implied that Stepney was right to flee because of the danger. Or you suggest that you don't even understand what you write? At least that's what seems to be the case.

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that is a disgracefull outright LIE and I demand you substantiate it or admit your lying.

I have never made any statement pertaining to what you accuse me of. I have always said that the allergations seem incredible. If you dont understand the word, look it up FFS. Here for the hard of understanding are a few definitions.

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so extraordinary as to seem impossible
not credible; hard to believe; unbelievable
farfetched, astonishing, preposterous
So implausible as to elicit disbelief: gave an incredible explanation of the cause of the accident.
incredible
1412, from L. incredibilis "that cannot be believed," from in- "not" + credibilis "worthy of belief" (see credit). Incredulity "disbelieving frame of mind" first attested 1430; incredulous "unbelieving" is from 1579.

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source is http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incredible

so ioan, I would be appeased if you retract the statement and issue a apology. :(

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

that is a disgracefull outright LIE and I demand you substantiate it or admit your lying.

I have never made any statement pertaining to what you accuse me of. I have always said that the allergations seem incredible. If you dont understand the word, look it up FFS. Here for the hard of understanding are a few definitions.



source is http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incredible

so ioan, I would be appeased if you retract the statement and issue a apology. :(

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I hope you are joking there, otherwise you've got some problem.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Hey!! I'm trying my best with the crazy rumours - I even saw Elvis involved. What more can I do :(

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LOL!

I know. I am not trying to follow the story until somebody is or is not raked over the coals....

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Originally Posted by ioan

I hope you are joking there, otherwise you've got some problem.

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no, im not joking and neither were you with your post. why not admit you made it up and were talking rubbish?

you cant go around lying on a forum and not get picked up on it.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

no, im not joking and neither were you with your post. why not admit you made it up and were talking rubbish?

you cant go around lying on a forum and not get picked up on it.

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So who wrote this???

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

A senior (just about former) member of the Ferrari team is saying he is being stalked and fears for his safety. A few weeks ago, you would have accused us of being Ferrari haters if we dared question his integrity?

neither of us know the validity to this story but if it turns out that he is innocent of these accusations, you have to admit it adds weight to what he is saying, doesnt it?

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You could simply stick to your own words.

Now, if you don't mind I have nothing more to add to our discussion about this subject. See you in another thread.

BTW here's what happened to day in court:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60695

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Originally Posted by ioan

So who wrote this???



You could simply stick to your own words.

Now, if you don't mind I have nothing more to add to our discussion about this subject. See you in another thread.

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Here's your reply to the said quote by Flat.tyre, notice that it was you who brought up theFerrari/violence connection, not Stepney, not Flat.tyres

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's what he said in his interview Saturday, who knows if he is really in danger.
Or do you think that Ferrari would try to harm him now when everything is public, if that was their aim they could have done it before starting elagl procedures against him?

He is just trying to picture himself as the victim in this scenario, and some actually believe him!

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Flat.tyres, i suggest you take ioan's last post a a sincere apology, that's as close as he can bend to make one. :p :

This may be a forum record. Usually somewhere within 15 pages is something of fact related to the title thread itself. In these 15 pages is nothing other than speculation, though some through links of other sources.


For all we know the entire thing was done because of a drunken bet as a joke. :laugh:

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Ferrari's action is being taken against Coughlan and his wife Trudy Coughlan, who is now alleged to have taken the 780-page Ferrari document at the centre of the controversy to a photocopying shop near Woking to be reproduced.

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This is getting silly beyond belief, McLaren lay their hands on these secret documents which they would not want anyone to know they had so they send someones wife to go photocopy them in a store?

Christ on a bike, I can't see how they could take this seriously?

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Originally Posted by janneppi

Here's your reply to the said quote by Flat.tyre, notice that it was you who brought up theFerrari/violence connection, not Stepney, not Flat.tyres



Flat.tyres, i suggest you take ioan's last post a a sincere apology, that's as close as he can bend to make one. :p :

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i have learned that when ioan gracefully bows out of a conversation, it's tantamount to him conceeding defeat.

Some people say it shows bad form. others that some people are cheese eating, surrender monkeys.

I say that ioan is neither but...

back to the thread as this will never get resolved but thanks J for your observations :D

Nothing will be resolved or even clarified in the forseeable future - the whole thing will drag on under all sorts of court orders for confidentiality, claims of self incrimination and so on. I predict that we won't get to the bottom of this for another two years at least, maybe even three.

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Originally Posted by Ian McC

This is getting silly beyond belief, McLaren lay their hands on these secret documents which they would not want anyone to know they had so they send someones wife to go photocopy them in a store?

Christ on a bike, I can't see how they could take this seriously?

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You are making a big assumption here, Ian. Yes, Mrs. Coughlan was obviously sent to do the job of photocopying the precious Ferrari design drawings, but by whom? By McLaren you say. You say the team had to be involved, but I say it is much more likely to have been nothing to do with McLaren. I suggest that Mr. Coughlan personally sent his good wife to copy the documents Stepney had given him, that same Mr. Coughlan who tried earlier, along with Stepney, to get a job for both of them at Honda. The men were obviously in league with each other.

There is no suggestion that anyone else at either of their teams was in league with them. There is no evidence yet (after one day of the two-day hearing) of a broader conspiracy and if you think about the sophistication of Jean Todt and Ron Dennis, it's hard to imagine either of them clumsily getting involved in a theft of an opponent's proprietary information. I think the conspiracy was nipped in the bud, at the copier-shop level. You can't nip much earlier than that.

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Originally Posted by Gannex

I suggest that Mr. Coughlan personally sent his good wife to copy the documents Stepney had given him...

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The only thing with that is that Stepney has denied sending any documents to Coughlan :crazy:

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"I categorically deny that I copied them [the documents], or that I sent them to Mike Coughlan. I knew I was being watched all the time at the factory and that everything I did or said was being reported back and that people knew whenever I accessed files on the computer. I have no idea how anything came into Mike's possession. If he has some documents, they came from another source."

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Link

Now, he may have been instructed to say that in the light of the legal case brought against him by Ferrari, but what if it's true? Who could be the other source and what could their motives be?

This is getting stranger to believe all the time!!!

Now, Jonathan Neele knew that Coughlan had the documents but I bet he claims he never saw them! Does anyone believe that if you know someone has 780 pages of secrets from your main rival that you aren't going to be curious enough to take a quick peek at them? Then, the two of you are going to go on about your business and never mention them to those who work beside you day after day? Of course, you will send your wife down to the local copy shop to copy them (for who???) where she will happen to run into a copy boy who happens to be a Ferrari fan?

You can't write this stuff!!! :) (You also can't believe it!)

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Originally Posted by wmcot

This is getting stranger to believe all the time!!!

Now, Jonathan Neele knew that Coughlan had the documents but I bet he claims he never saw them! Does anyone believe that if you know someone has 780 pages of secrets from your main rival that you aren't going to be curious enough to take a quick peek at them? Then, the two of you are going to go on about your business and never mention them to those who work beside you day after day? Of course, you will send your wife down to the local copy shop to copy them (for who???) where she will happen to run into a copy boy who happens to be a Ferrari fan?

You can't write this stuff!!! :) (You also can't believe it!)

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This is developing nicely, at the end of the day Ron will be the only one from the McLaren staff who didn't knew about these documents! :D

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Originally Posted by wmcot

This is getting stranger to believe all the time!!!

Now, Jonathan Neele knew that Coughlan had the documents but I bet he claims he never saw them! Does anyone believe that if you know someone has 780 pages of secrets from your main rival that you aren't going to be curious enough to take a quick peek at them? Then, the two of you are going to go on about your business and never mention them to those who work beside you day after day? Of course, you will send your wife down to the local copy shop to copy them (for who???) where she will happen to run into a copy boy who happens to be a Ferrari fan?

You can't write this stuff!!! :) (You also can't believe it!)

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And of course, just nipped round to my local copier shop, and lo and behold, the spotty oik behind the counter produces a little black book, and on page 6 there it was, Jean Todt's address and phone numbers - amazing......

I also asked him for this weeks Lotto numbers, but he told me to p*ss off or he'd squeeze a zit over me!! :D

Unfortunately, before waiting for more facts to emerge (because we have precious few to go on at the moment) it seems that this case is being judged on everything other than fact in certain quarters :dozey:

What do we know for sure?

1) Nigel Stepney has been sacked by Ferrari for unspecified misconduct.
2) Ferrari documents have been found in the possesion of McLaren's Mike Coughlan.
3) Stepney denies sending any documents to anyone.
4) A photocopy shop employee tipped off Ferrari when they were asked to copy Ferrari documents by Coughlan's wife.
5) McLaren's Jonathan Neale knew of the documents, but we don't know when he knew of their existence.
6) Stepney & Coughlan were in dicussion with Honda.

Any other facts?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Unfortunately, before waiting for more facts to emerge (because we have precious few to go on at the moment) it seems that this case is being judged on everything other than fact in certain quarters :dozey:

What do we know for sure?

1) Nigel Stepney has been sacked by Ferrari for unspecified misconduct.
2) Ferrari documents have been found in the possesion of McLaren's Mike Coughlan.
3) Stepney denies sending any documents to anyone.
4) A photocopy shop employee tipped off Ferrari when they were asked to copy Ferrari documents by Coughlan's wife.
5) McLaren's Jonathan Neale knew of the documents, but we don't know when he knew of their existence.
6) Stepney & Coughlan were in dicussion with Honda.

Any other facts?

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Well yeah!! you forgot the Elvis connection.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Any other facts?

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My big toe is hurting.....

Ah, well. I tried :dozey:

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Ah, well. I tried :dozey:

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After this espionage/spying/photocopying saga is over, Ferrari's next ploy, will be to stand at the side of the track, and as the McLaren zooms by they will all shout;

"stop, your wheels are going round" in an attempt to derail and destabilise the opposition..... :D

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Ah, well. I tried :dozey:

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Tried what?! :rolleyes:

See below, Ferrari and the Coughlan's reach agreement.....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60706

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

See below, Ferrari and the Coughlan's reach agreement.....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60706

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So Coughlan didn't resist to the pressure.
Let's see who's names will be on his list.

Ross Brawn :p :

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Unfortunately, before waiting for more facts to emerge (because we have precious few to go on at the moment) it seems that this case is being judged on everything other than fact in certain quarters :dozey:

What do we know for sure?

1) Nigel Stepney has been sacked by Ferrari for unspecified misconduct.
2) Ferrari documents have been found in the possesion of McLaren's Mike Coughlan.
3) Stepney denies sending any documents to anyone.
4) A photocopy shop employee tipped off Ferrari when they were asked to copy Ferrari documents by Coughlan's wife.
5) McLaren's Jonathan Neale knew of the documents, but we don't know when he knew of their existence.
6) Stepney & Coughlan were in dicussion with Honda.

Any other facts?

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7) Ferrari's criminal complaint to the Italian authorities specified Stepney's wrongdoing and was judged by the police and the Modena District Attorney's office to be serious enough and plausible enough to warrant searching Stepney's apartment.
8) The search of Stepney's apartment yielded evidence sufficient to convince the Italian authorities to persist in their criminal proceedings against Stepney.
9) Stepney claimed that when the story broke he was on holiday, which Ferrari well knew, because he had booked the holiday through the Ferrari travel office.
10) Stepney did not book his "holiday" through the Ferrari travel office, according to employees in that office.
11) McLaren say that only one hour elapsed between them learning that Coughlan had the documents and them informing Ferrari that Coughlan had the documents.
12) The documents were copied on or about the 2nd or 3rd of May 2007.