Is this still the plan, for current Rally2 Cars to compete with the new 2027-spec cars ? I cant remember any more after this has changed so many times ! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
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Is this still the plan, for current Rally2 Cars to compete with the new 2027-spec cars ? I cant remember any more after this has changed so many times ! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
I think this will be the only option. But probably will not be any official manufacturer present, because let's face it. As soon there would be in any kind of form of Toyota, nobody would stand a chance. We don't have to worry about entries, because there would probably be too much of them. As other manufacturers who currently (still) produce those kind of cars are not interested for many years now, so I think this will not change.
I see the fears coming from M-Sport, but if they need those 2 extra months, just spend them on the front and the rear, since they have already the detailed rules. From August on, just work on the rest.
As for Hyundai, enough with their crying and rule changes. This is just the last excuse to justify something they already decided long time ago, but they didn't share yet.
I'd love seeing tuners like Prodrive partnering with a manufacturer rather than Hyundai's daily soap opera.
Also, it might open the door back for Lancia and Skoda as well. Since the costs are dramatically going down, if they manage to get on board some good heavy sponsors (Abu Dhabi, TotalEnergies or something like that) they could fund very efficiently their factory campaign. I'm just speculating, but Lancia's CEO told that with current Rally1 it was too expensive and didn't guarantee return of investment. Now, who knows?
The more I hear about 2027 and the fallout from the proposed new regs the more I think about what happened to the DTM race series. Once capable of drawing crowds as big or bigger than for F1 it fell from its pedestal thru bad promotion, falling out amongst the manufacturers and a shifting world outside of motorsport. You could quite easily say that the WRC is in the departure gate ready to follow. Whilst the following article doesnt necessarily fit completely it does raise some interesting points one of which is about being unique which certainly in recent years the top formula WRC 1 etc has been, with Rally 2 based kit that will be lost:
https://gprejects.com/centrale/opini...ean-motorsport
fia will redesign the rally pyramid for 2027
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-w...amid-for-2027/
does anyone know how cheaper would be to run something like this as an 'entry level' instead of rally4 and rally3?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hwLMicOd-xw
this class is exploding in autocross/rallycross, with looooots of brands producing it.
just get them to produce 2 seaters, like this one
no? entry level
Look up SSV - side-by-side vehicle, they're not new in bajas or raids or in the Middle East and Africa. One came 6th in Rally Saudi over the weekend. More simple 2-seater carts/buggys like you linked are unsuitable for being European street-legal which you need for any significant rallying or influential support.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
It should be cheaper, don't know if you saw this video but it could become more of a thing. In 10 years time why would anybody be building a brand new 15 year old car for the privateer? It doesn't make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
To the topic if private tuners can carry the championship - of course they can. Dakar/W2RC basically works like that. Dacia is Prodrive, which run their own team even before Renault entered, Toyota is Overdrive, Mini is X-Raid, and many of other cars without manufacturers' backing is there too. etc. etc. There always were and always will be bunch of privateers, full factory teams were really an exeption.
And as it was already mentioned in this thread, there were many attempts to build a rally car from private tuners, that ended on the need of manufacturer backed homologation.
I think that Toyota is running official Dakar/W2RC program with Toyota Gazoo Racing South Africa and not Overdrive. Hilux is there for like million years already and they sell those cars to many privateers. How many rally1 cars are out there owned by privateers. I can only think about two and both by M-Sport. Also don't get why old spec WRC cars can't compete in WRC. Are they afraid that those cars would beat the "newest machines"? Also there is more or less open classes and not so strict about everything, that's why there are so many entries. Also it adds up, that "SUV" trend around the globe and amongst almost all brands are favourable here.
mmm "without manufacture's backing" is a long shot, I think it's far from reality. nonetheless, we have m-sport example of a privateer not much backed by many and we all see how it is struggling...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
But this is the DNA of rallying. The Manufacturer provided the car and the tuners ran it. Without the Manufacturer (homologated) car there was no car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
WRC and all rallying would have to change completely for cars to be built and run completely by private teams.
Rallying using all kinds of non-road car based vehicles just isn't the same.
I think that M-Sport would do just fine if not the best, if there would be no manufacturer direct involvement. As mentioned. Manufacturer would provide a car, tuner would build the racing beast, and manufacturer would homologate it. No fancy tents and busses of people just walking up and down service park with no real impact on racing outcome.
if it wasnt for the homologation thing, the FIA (and promoters, for obvious reasons) wanting MANUFACTURERS PAYING HUGE FEES to compete and the Need for it ''to be a road legal car to travel between stages", cheaper stuff like this
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AqXOcluzkNQ would be EXCELLENT for entry levels and national championships (maybe even Rally2?) apparently it costs less than 100K, 400hp 4wd ICE - even cheaper if you build a less powerfull engine.
...AND, if you are a manufacturer, you could just switch the front and back bumpers for it to resemble you car. have a yaris fron grill and rear lights, well... "it is a toyota" ISH haha im half joking, ok? but at the same time ehhhh..... dodge did that in US when that championship was going on, for example.
brought a sticker, called it "dodge" and got thousand of eye-balls on your instagram posts about the car.
Its 2025, nothing makes sense anymore
Also from the championship's start in 2022 to now, there were 6, 4, 4 then 3 manufacturers competing, Toyota, Dacia and Ford; and that's across all categories. Neither Mini or the independent builders are there and there's no series-production requirement in T1/Ultimate. Maybe the small teams could carry the cup but once it moved to championship status and the fees had to be paid to a promoter, things changed. I don't know how the cup was, but the drivers championship has registration fees that WRC privateers don't have to pay because the manufacturers face the burden. Only 4 drivers competed all 5 rounds last year... I don't see what's worth copying.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
I'm confused... that's how it worked till nowQuote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
The "manufacturer homologate it" is the issue here. From a sporting or technical view, there is no need for that. It exists only to make money for the FIA.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
You can just create a set of technical rules, and everyone who conforms to those rules is allowed to start. Kinda like in every other technical sport.
but you cant travel between stages on a generic hatchback, for example. the police can stop you and arrest the car because its not 'road legal'.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
unless theres some kind of deal with EU and the overseas countries. that sounds like an expensive bribery :/
Of course you can. Being road legal have nothing to do with manufacturers, otherwise there wouldn't be any new car brands or one-off cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
but BRANDs and new CARS from A BRAND is different from a spaceframe tube with generic body pannels / aerokit, no? like... "Sir. what is this car you are driving on the road?" - "Its a Oreca build spaceframe" ...not sure its the same thing hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
im not from europe, so no idea how stuff would work. here in south america you would have to bribe governments and police officers the whole weekend
Edit: hmm sure, special permits and authorizations, sure. it took me some hours to think about that hehe
WRC Commission considers "refinements" to 2027 regulation reforms:
https://x.com/RallyingUK/status/1920837463855026304
So what's a difference between "Oreca built spaceframe" and "M-Sport built spaceframe, but it kinda looks like Ford".Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
yep, u got me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
do they get special permits for public roads? or the fact it "is a ford puma" makes it legal? if its a total generic car, can they have permits that are not mega expensive?
This is a loaded question. The permit itself shouldn't be expensive in the grand scheme of things, perhaps having the staff to do it all would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
In the UK should be similar to EU, anyone can build a car at home and get it approved for road use but it has to be inspected at a cost to check it meets minimum standards. A manufacturer can produce up to 500* vehicles per year this way but each individual car built must be inspected. I imagine this is what the kind of outfit we're discussing would do
Or, mass-manufacturers can go for type approval, meaning only one gets inspected in theory, and they then make however many identical cars. But really everything about the manufacturing process is inspected, this requires a lot of effort, documentation and a lot tougher standards of safety, emissions this kind of thing.
A spaceframe rally Puma, whoever built it, would be seen as a completely different vehicle to normal production Puma, as it doesn't conform to the type approval standard. It's just shared branding. Kenneth is right, there's no difference between Ford or Oreca spaceframe cars.
*I've read 300 elsewhere from the same Government agency that does it.
We all know the spaceframe Rally1 Cars aren't based on a road car shell. But each one has been made by a Manufacturer (or virtual with Ford/MSport) and are clearly designed to be / resemble a Puma, Yaris or i20.
The issue would be what an Oreca made car would look like and what if any manufacturer car it would resemble ? If no Manufacturer panels are used who would fund it ? And do we want to see anonymous 'coild be anything' vehicles representing the top of rallying ?
Iirc the scrapped 27 ruleset said that the Rally1 still has to resemble a road car (no matter if it's hatchback, sedan, suv or even a concept), so that's not really an issue. The difference is that they don't need an approval from manufacturer.
Imo that will open doors for support from local dealer / manufacturer branch. Paddon have enough support from Hyundai NZ to build various cars, that will never be FIA homologated because there is no support from Hyundai. Now that won't matter.
could that work? like, would mitsubishi be ok if i start a wrc team with a eclipsecross, for example? no need to authotize me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
that would be super interesting and it would solve all problems tbf. literally haha
spaceframe, body pannel from ANY car. they can even have something like "it gotta be one of the top 5 most selled cars from the brand over the last 3 years" (OR NOT, so we could have old school cars body pannels with modern engineering ??????)
If you think that Paddon car will be called a Hyundai then that is absolutely not going to happen without Hyundai entering as a manufacturer. There's no real distinction between HMSG and Hyundai NZ; the make will be Hyundai regardless. There's no free ride for any manufacturers and never will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
What the rules do allow for is bespoke designs, so an Oreca car will be a bespoke Oreca design and will be funded by the privateer market, likely with Oreca being forced to enter the championship as a manufacturer for the privilege of their cars being eligible for the championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Remember the McRae R4 for a bespoke design?
Adding to the above, you cannot take a brand and apply it to your own products without approval.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
I think a official importer can, with agreement from the manufacturer of course, run a "importerbased" team as i brand. But they dont need the homologation from a manufacturer to do it if its a base spaceframe chassis approved from FIA that is allowed to use between stages.
To be honest, its obvious that no manufacturers (exept Toyota) is interested in WRC these days, so its quite easy: open the rules for other teams or let it die.
I really dont see a manufacturer deny a official importer make a rallycar, they both get exposure without official involvment, they can put some money into the team without complicit theire green politics, they can sell the electric cars and let the people that don't know belive the brand is all green.
It's a win-win-win consept.
Maybe not for FIA that cant have big fees for enter the championship, but i really don't feel sorry for those guys.
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What about those Lancia's who burned everything down (and almost the whole championship) from WorldRX. I know it's completely different. What car were they based on under "official" delta skin. And how do they get approval from manufacturer or FIA to compete at the top level.
In RX it's a bit different. You can make a RX car from any chassis that was ever homologated by FIA (I'm not sure right now if it's just Group A or literally anything, but that's not important right now). Doesn't matter what was inside or outside the car, it just need to use homologated chassis.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
As Lancia Delta Evo was of course homologated at some point, they could have build a RX car out of it.
Same reason why there is Skoda or Hyundai cars in RX althrough neither of the brands were involved.
Andreas Bakkerud's team just built an RX 'Ford Puma' for the Norwegian Championship, with no connection to Ford or MSport. This is a converted road car shell but I guess the same principle applies... just pick a car you like and fit its panels to the spaceframe, no need to have it endorsed by its manufacturer ?
But this car is competing only on closed circuit. It never goes on normal roads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
The FIA intends for the next set of World Rally Championship regulations to become the backbone of championships all over the world, not just the WRC....
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/2027-...-just-for-wrc/
If I take a Ford Focus, gut it to a bare shell and fit a different drive line, suspension and change some cosmetic body panels is it still a Ford Focus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Assuming you kept the VIN plate; yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
well isn't it the way rally works for last 25 years??Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
It did until Rally1, but that is besides the point. If the new regulations bring along a spec chassis everyone will use the same car with a few different bits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
opel showing their electric rally4 car made me think about fia saying they will re-design the rally pyramid. rally4s (lancia, ice opel, electric opel, msport, peugeot, renault...) as the 'lites' and space framed rally2 as the top class?
The car is eRally5, not Rally4.
ah but they are claming its on pair with rally4 (performance)... so since they are changing the whole rally pyramid for 27, why not? https://dirtfish.com/rally/first-fia...ealed-by-opel/Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
im not the biggest "rally3" fan. in ERC they run some renault clios in rally4 too, so idk... I'd go this way, maybe? cuz thats 5 brands already