WRC future

And here's something else to think about.... Despite Malcolm's whinging every year he has the WRC/FIA over a barrel for a long time now and he knows it... Msport is not running at a loss... R5 cars are certainly not capped at 190,000 Euros/£160,000... Anybody that has ordered the latest one will tell you that. Ladder of opportunity? That's a good one.... Wilson certainly isn't worried about the "sport".... He's right about one thing though, the top level cars need to be closer to R5 spec, not a space framed hybrid....

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Originally Posted by Oops!

And here's something else to think about.... Despite Malcolm's whinging every year he has the WRC/FIA over a barrel for a long time now and he knows it... Msport is not running at a loss... R5 cars are certainly not capped at 190,000 Euros/£160,000... Anybody that has ordered the latest one will tell you that. Ladder of opportunity? That's a good one.... Wilson certainly isn't worried about the "sport".... He's right about one thing though, the top level cars need to be closer to R5 spec, not a space framed hybrid....

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Do you not think he may have a point about the WRC cars becoming more expensive, regardless of the fantastic (R5 and other cars) business model he’s created and should be commended for?

Read the last line of my post again..... I doubt he's worried if he's patted on the back or not...

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Originally Posted by Oops!

Read the last line of my post again..... I doubt he's worried if he's patted on the back or not...

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Patted on the back?

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Originally Posted by Oops!

He's right about one thing though, the top level cars need to be closer to R5 spec, not a space framed hybrid....

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No, the spaceframe is necessary because it opens the door to every single manufacturer in the world. Cars based on production model mean that less and less manufacturers can join even if they wanted.

The spaceframe is not what makes it expensive. Look at the Dakar, there are loads of spaceframe-based cars and most of them are privately-built. It's no rocket science.

It's a good job M-Sport do make money on their R5 as the sales of 2017-spec WRC's have been just five cars in 3 years...

If the plan is as Mr Matton says, to keep the total output for the new WRCar at aprox the same level as today, and that is ca 400.

One way is to use an R5 engine as the petrol part, and that is aprox 300, you need the hybrid part to be 100 hp.
Then you keep cost lower for the petrol engine, and have to add 100 hybrid horses.

What other ways can you get cost down, so you can get privateers into the Rally 1 class, that also is FIAs aim for the future?

Isnt a big part of the current cars extra costs compared to an R5 down to all the aero - both testing it and the parts themselves ?

Remember Ostberg begging for his Fiesta rear spoiler to be returned...

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Isnt a big part of the current cars extra costs compared to an R5 down to all the aero - both testing it and the parts themselves ?

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Aero is expensive, but the rear wing or front bumper on an R5 car isn't free either.

The price cap itself is most important in R5. When you have to sell the car at a certain price you don't want to put too expensive parts in it.

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Originally Posted by Sulland

If the plan is as Mr Matton says, to keep the total output for the new WRCar at aprox the same level as today, and that is ca 400.

One way is to use an R5 engine as the petrol part, and that is aprox 300, you need the hybrid part to be 100 hp.
Then you keep cost lower for the petrol engine, and have to add 100 hybrid horses.

What other ways can you get cost down, so you can get privateers into the Rally 1 class, that also is FIAs aim for the future?

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They're talking about 100KW for the electric part which is about 140BHP.

what u guys think these 2022 "tubeframe cars" will look like?

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Originally Posted by giu canbera

what u guys think these 2022 "tubeframe cars" will look like?

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On the outside, not so different from the current ones.

“These high voltage electric systems, from a safety point of view they can give big challenges. You have to control the people in the stages where they can touch the cars. We have to consider the logistic matters of transporting the high voltage items. It is very difficult and expensive compared to the current system,” Tommi Makkinen from Toyota Gazoo Rally Team said.

http://www.racerviews.com/2020/02/07...es-of-the-car/

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/c...ules-deadlock/

worrying??

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Originally Posted by deephouse

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/c...ules-deadlock/

worrying??

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It's still hard for me to see how will they take the cost down to half a million euros with the hybrid system when the last generation cars cost the same and they were very 'back to basics' approach.... Imho it is worrying..hopefully they'll find the best solutions...

It's worrying because they predict one more manu get out because of that.. instead getting in...

Todt interview on the 2022 cars:

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/w...u-need-to-know

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Todt interview on the 2022 cars:

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/w...u-need-to-know

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Matton

If they are making the cars so much cheaper (or plan too), is it really realistic to expect performance to be the same as the current spec cars like they are aiming for?

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Originally Posted by er88

If they are making the cars so much cheaper (or plan too), is it really realistic to expect performance to be the same as the current spec cars like they are aiming for?

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More difficult to drive, less options for development and setup. Also the tuned up R5 engine could mean more engine failures.

Reading the article it sounds very clever. Indeed the development costs of rollcage/safety, fuel tank are things that could be interesting to share, as there's no competition advantage to be found with it anyway. Limiting the aero options to make them less vulnerable would be interesting too. On every rally I've been, at the end of the loop, pretty much all cars have some parts that are destroyed or missing. It's expensive for the teams and not very interesting from a marketing perspective either.

His view on the dampers is quite interesting too. During the last 15 years there's been a massive development, current cars have a huge suspension travel, dampers are mounted on weird angles that seem to work. It costs a lot of money/experience to get the knowledge about it, maybe it's even one of the biggest barriers from getting new teams to play along. Fact is also that with current suspension travel they can put their wheels nearly everywhere and destroy the roads and surroundings a lot more than they used to in the past.

Examples how to make the car cheap and as fast:
- large aero size allowed (for example for rear wing) but less parts/sections
- more power (restrictor, electric engine acting like ALS...)

Anyway I like that Matton talks about reducing number of available parts. That's something I mentioned at the end of 2018 when it was revealed that Hyundai had 50!! sets of dampers to choose from while poor VW before only had 20! It's not only how much they cost, but most of all how much it costs to test and find the "best" choice for every rally/section/stage.

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Originally Posted by Eli

It's still hard for me to see how will they take the cost down to half a million euros with the hybrid system when the last generation cars cost the same and they were very 'back to basics' approach....

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Spot on. At the time it was told that post-2011 cars (1.6T first gen) were costing around 500k. It’s true that they already used the expensive Global Race Engine, but they didn’t had active central diff, ’17 aero kit, paddle shift and a ‘who knows how much it’ll cost’ hybrid system.

So, besides the R5 engine, is the FIA planning to use the whole R5 package as the basis for ’22 cars? And what about this universal roll-cage; is it just a different name for the subframe chassis?

Lot’s of doubts and apparently only one thing seems sure: manus are splited on the new rules and the FIA is not able to get a consensus. Probably it won’t be a surprise to see 2022 cars only ready in 2023...

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Spot on. At the time it was told that post-2011 cars (1.6T first gen) were costing around 500k.

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I was once lucky enough to go to M-Sport with a team (NCRS) to pick one up, in 2013. It was an ex-Novikov car (shell 17) that was completely rebuilt and updated to the latest spec available at that time. If I remember correctly it was roughly 400k including a large spare parts package. What made the cars so expensive compared to R5 was the running cost (revision/replacement of parts).

In 2014 it was made public that a new one was costing around £400k (at the time +/- €500k) https://www.wrc.com/en/news/news-arc...ort---400-000/

I wonder if current and new Teams will be happy with so many standard parts to save costs. It wont give them so much chance to prove their superiority.

But Matton says they cant cap the costs though and it would be very hard to police anyway.

I see big problems ahead.

why not to use R5 as the top class (that would bring way more entries than the current 8-10, right?. Like, in a heartbeat) and go for synthetic fuel instead of hybrids? I mean, the real $$ is with petrol companies... and they WANT to look "more clean and green". Why not to go after this for 2022? R5 with synthetic fuel...

It is synthetic fuels for a long time already...and why use or not use R5s has also been discussed here more than enough.:D

https://www.rallit.fi/rallin-mm-sarj...toa-realismia/

Mäkinen commenting on the 2022 rules as well as Hyundai and M-Sport wanting to use the R5 engine. He says (the same I've been saying) that if you put the top drivers going flat out in R5 cars, wheels will fly off. If you take the center diff off (like Hyundai and M-Sport want (!!!)), you start seeing more driveshaft failures, and if you use the R5 engine, it's cheaper, but you break so many of them that the cost is almost the same in the end (he says 30 000 cheaper per season with R5 engines).

Mäkinen concludes by saying it's not easy and hopes it will not end like with WRX.

Yes but part of being a good driver is to now when to push. Of course modern cars are tougher and more exciting to watch but not like these guys can't get R5 to finish cmon.

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Originally Posted by masa90

Yes but part of being a good driver is to now when to push. Of course modern cars are tougher and more exciting to watch but not like these guys can't get R5 to finish cmon.

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Of course. But it would change the nature of the competition.

you see top line driver using r5 in regional events and the car usually reach the finish line pretty well...

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Originally Posted by wyler

you see top line driver using r5 in regional events and the car usually reach the finish line pretty well...

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With less kilometres and most likely less level of competition.

Some WRC drivers did drive on wrc scale format before with R5 cars.. I mean it's each teams frickin' job to make it better. Isn't it?? He is concerned because he doesn't have a car yet and other two have it already for a quite some time now. Or he is afraid that if he did actualy build an R5 car it would be fragile as f***. These are race cars and most of the manufacturers who build that type of car is building them for a customers so the product needs to be excelent, otherwise they will go to the rivals which have better package.. Simple a that. Makinen needs to stop blaberring nonsenses. Just because he have unlimited money from Akio doesn't mean that every team have it. I'm worried about M-Sport not Hyundai. M-Sport could actually leave whole thing if the right solution will not be brought up.

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Originally Posted by deephouse

Some WRC drivers did drive on wrc scale format before with R5 cars..

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Many of these drivers who have taken the step from R5 to WRC have been surprised at how much more pace you need to stay up with the top drivers.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

https://www.rallit.fi/rallin-mm-sarj...toa-realismia/.... If you take the center diff off (like Hyundai and M-Sport want (!!!)), you start seeing more driveshaft failures...

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My Google translate of the same article says that MSport and Hyundai want to remove the centre diff and reinforce the driveshafts at the same time.

The whole thing sounds like a big rant where he wants to keep everything the same as is now and just add hybrid tech. That might be good idea for him with probably the highest budget and currently the fastest car, but it's not difficult to see that others want changes.

I'd say that the number of manus in WRC (2!!!) speaks for itself about how sustainable current rules are. Furthermore MSport has been building rallycars since forever and has also been focused on costs for quite many years. Somehow I rather trust them on cost-saving ideas.

Most of you don´t understand that HYBRID needs power source (battery) which weights a lot.

For 50km range several hundred kilos.

That extra weight will break current Rally2 cars...

Andrea Adamo said last saturday that the deal for cheaper WRC's is done:

http://sportmotores.com/portal/sport...ticia?id=56613

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

With less kilometres and most likely less level of competition.

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not really. take wrc2/3 we had we have ostberg, camilli, greensmith, we had rovampera. not far from top level, same km as wrc.
of course, car will be revised, not stay the same. but clearly is feasible without much drama.
also is pretty understandable that every manager tries to plead for their benefit. toyota is the only one without such spec car -even if they r to be revised- but especially such an engine. remember the battle over dismissal of gre?
point is this single manu benefit is not beneficial as well to wrc development in general. at least at this particular moment.

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Originally Posted by wyler

not really. take wrc2/3 we had we have ostberg, camilli, greensmith, we had rovampera. not far from top level, same km as wrc.

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Now check how often Østberg's R5 rallies failed last year from technical faults. My point is that the competition in WRC2 is not as tough as in main WRC. You can drive easier and expect to get a podium position. If you do that with main WRC, you will fall too far behind, because the cars are more durable and the level of pace higher.