WRC Driver Conduct On Road Sections - Case Tänak at Monte Carlo

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Originally Posted by AnttiK7

I only joined this forum again to talk about this thing, nothing else. My goal was to raise discussion about an issue that has potential to become serious for WRC in the future. But the reason I haven't contributed on this forum for years is all too clear to see in this topic. The level of name calling that the conversation descends into very rapidly is quite depressing. For some reason it's ok on this forum to personally attack other members rather than actually only talk about the subject. I mean I know it's not politically correct for me to post a topic like this on here and I know what to expect. But still...come on. Silly, often sexist and childish remarks, coming by people hiding cowardly behind anonymity, to someone whose name has been essentially published here for everyone. And I know this is the way of this forum for years now and why I don't spend my time here on a regular basis. Now don't get me wrong, there are people here who actually put thought into their posts and not all of them agree with my views in this topic either. But that intelligent discussion is drowned in the nonsense in between. Another problem I have is that I post something and then a few pages later it has been twisted into something completely else that I did not say at all and then I (stupidly) spend my time correcting myself and the cycle goes on like that. But that's lesser of an issue.

I see I also have to still clarify my comments on the second video. So to recap, Ogier slides in an excessive manner with other cars nearby which I don't approve of, if the slide was deliberately induced. He slows down/stops immediately after the slide, maybe when he sees the camera. Tänak slides a bit less but drives the same section with a more committed attitude and speed, as if he is on a stage and not a road section. Ogier's driving is wrong for me in that video, Tänak's driving is wrong as well, full stop. Mikkelsen looks like he is trying to do some kind of low key warming up exercise which is not even worth mentioning really compared to the other things. For a detailed analysis and driver comparison, I would need to see everyone's full liaison onboards. Who knows, maybe some of these guys go all crazy when they know no one is watching, but for example Tänak doesn't mind showing off for the people/cameras.

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You claim to talk of "an intelligent discussion"...Nothing in the entire subject and way you have gone on in this discussion is or has been intelligent...logically since the subject and manner of discourse in nonsensical, there can be no logical discussion...
Your nuancing and basically blabbering about why ALL the other things we have seen are naughty but not as naughty as the poor soon to be fired, arrested and thrown in prison Tanak, we cannot take you seriously..

You talk of discssion yet throughout this discussion you answer questions not asked and ignore genuine questions posed clearly to you---in a futile attempt at establishing what is called "affiliation"....Nope, no answers, just continue your 1 man outrage and parsing...

Your comments about others "hiding behind" fake names is either trolling or more signs of a mind in trouble..
Some how your fake name is OK and all the others are bad fake names because somehow I don't think your real name is AnttiK7.....Antti OK, but you expect us to believe K7? FAKE!


More logic fail.

I believe my real and full name and even address should be just below, down V there.

Give it up....you are embarrassing us all.. You "discuss" like a Trump supporter, and that is a giant insult to everybody's intelligence

This is much better than the wornout WRC vs. Gr B discussion. Imagine if this becomes a cyclic conversation :-)

I agree with Antti, it's childish and ill-mannered to stop discussing and start calling names. As a Finn I feel like I'm not entitled to any critical opinion anymore on Tänak, just because I'm a Finn - or at least others get a right to misinterpret. I hope there's be forum members and other members of rallying community that could see that some of us enjoy and appreaciate the sport beyond nationalities. And John, if you haven't figured out AnttiK7's real name by now, well, that's your mistake.

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

As a Finn I feel like I'm not entitled to any critical opinion anymore on Tänak, just because I'm a Finn

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You still do not understand, problem is that for Antti only Tanak is bad and he need to send it to FIA. While there is also other video with Ogier, but still Tanak is much more dangerous because Antti counted seconds...he sais its not national, but what it is then, please say?
They bouth are sliding Ogier even more and cars coming opposite side.

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

This is much better than the wornout WRC vs. Gr B discussion. Imagine if this becomes a cyclic conversation :-)

I agree with Antti, it's childish and ill-mannered to stop discussing and start calling names. As a Finn I feel like I'm not entitled to any critical opinion anymore on Tänak, just because I'm a Finn - or at least others get a right to misinterpret. I hope there's be forum members and other members of rallying community that could see that some of us enjoy and appreaciate the sport beyond nationalities. And John, if you haven't figured out AnttiK7's real name by now, well, that's your mistake.

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Thank you for that, I feel the same way about the whole nationality thing. I feel my opinion is disqualified only because of my nationality, even when anyone who really knows me would probably have a good laugh at the suggestion of me as a nationalistic person. Also I find it really boring when people generalise other people based on their nationalities. I have said elsewhere in this thread already, Ott Tänak beat his team mates Latvala and Lappi fair and square on the stages. Latvala was clearly slower and Lappi very inconsistent. Tänak's drive on the stages was very impressive especially given that it was his first drive in the team. But this topic is not about that. I am talking about his behaviour outside the stages which I personally consider damaging for the sport of rallying, full stop.

What's up with all the direct comments on persons here?

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Originally Posted by Jakem

You still do not understand, problem is that for Antti only Tanak is bad and he need to send it to FIA. While there is also other video with Ogier, but still Tanak is much more dangerous because Antti counted seconds...he sais its not national, but what it is then, please say?
They bouth are sliding Ogier even more and cars coming opposite side.

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The way I read Antti's writing "Still, I don't approve of the kind of slides either on road section that Ogier shows, I definitely agree with that", is that he doesn't approve Ogier's antics either.

But he doesn`t want to hang Ogier as an example, but only Tänak and measures speed and angle and threat to bystanders through videos.:D

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

The way I read Antti's writing "Still, I don't approve of the kind of slides either on road section that Ogier shows, I definitely agree with that", is that he doesn't approve Ogier's antics either.

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Yes but for Ogier he only sais he do not approve. But he wants that guy who needs to be punished by FIA is only Tanak like example for others. If he really care about road safety and wrc in big picture, he would collect all this material form all driver and send it to FIA, not start to count second whose slide was faster. Somebody allready asked did he also sent Ogier using mobile on road sectoin, but he didnt send.
Lets say we have 10 killers and we but only one in prison as an exaple for others. We all now every of ten are killers but we punish only one poor guy.. I do not have nothing more to say, dont want to waste my time on this shit any more.

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

The way I read Antti's writing "Still, I don't approve of the kind of slides either on road section that Ogier shows, I definitely agree with that", is that he doesn't approve Ogier's antics either.

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But only reported about Tänak... He doesn't approve Ogier's behaviour but apparantely it's better because... and did not report about it. Double standards I call it. What bugs me is very hypocritical attitude by the OP.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

This forum is going to implode if Tänak wins in Jyväskyla.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Tarmop

But he doesn`t want to hang Ogier as an example, but only Tänak and measures speed and angle and threat to bystanders through videos.:D

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Yesterday I was only aware of the original Tänak video. And right now today I still believe it's by far the worst example of road driving of the lot that we have here so far from 2018 Monte Carlo Rally. Change Ogier with Tänak in the original video and I wouldn't change my opinion one iota. The second video makes Tänak look worse to me simply because it's two out of two road driving videos I have seen of him from this rally now where he seems to pay no regard to road traffic rules. By the way you also have the same freedom as me to contact FIA or anyone else yourself if you want.

But didn`t you see Ogier dangerously overtaking a bus? It was in the same video, but still, 2 different situations. And using his phone in wrc live? Thats 3 different situations. 2<3...put it in your report with all others and atleast you are being honest/fair.

30 pages and counting...

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Originally Posted by Tarmop

But didn`t you see Ogier making a dangerous overtake from a bus? It was in the same video, but still, 2 different situations. And using his phone in wrc live? Thats 3 different situations. 2<3...

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I honestly feel making headlines about the incidents you mentioned would be over reaction. The only one even worth considering is the excessive, but very slow speed sliding, if it was intentional that is, because we can't even tell that from the video. Like I said, maybe Ogier is smart enough to stop playing around when he sees someone filming, who knows.

What we can tell though clearly from the videos is that Tänak is carrying considerable speed, throwing his car into the corners and doing powerslides on public roads, there is no dispute about that. And like I said earlier, the only way to give an honest comparison between everyone's road driving would be to have access and analyse everyone's onboards from liaisons. From the very little we have seen so far, Tänak's driving has been the worst and most damaging for rallying in my eyes. With this message I want to conclude myself from going in circles about the severity and comparison between Ogier's and Tänak's driving, we agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by AnttiK7

Yesterday I was only aware of the original Tänak video. And right now today I still believe it's by far the worst example of road driving of the lot that we have here so far from 2018 Monte Carlo Rally. Change Ogier with Tänak in the original video and I wouldn't change my opinion one iota. The second video makes Tänak look worse to me simply because it's two out of two road driving videos I have seen of him from this rally now where he seems to pay no regard to road traffic rules. By the way you also have the same freedom as me to contact FIA or anyone else yourself if you want.

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maybe one bitcoin would make you report Ogier and others also? :)

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Originally Posted by AnttiK7

Yesterday I was only aware of the original Tänak video. And right now today I still believe it's by far the worst example of road driving of the lot that we have here so far from 2018 Monte Carlo Rally. Change Ogier with Tänak in the original video and I wouldn't change my opinion one iota. The second video makes Tänak look worse to me simply because it's two out of two road driving videos I have seen of him from this rally now where he seems to pay no regard to road traffic rules. By the way you also have the same freedom as me to contact FIA or anyone else yourself if you want.

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Just admit it, you're a f*ing hypocrite.

1997 (!!!) Redelmeier and Tibshirani study showed that the risk of collision while using mobile phone was 4 TIMES higher than when mobile phone was not in use. And the phones back in 1997 demanded lot less attention than the ones we have today, so that number might be even higher today. Using mobile phones while driving is clearly illegal under French jurisdiction. Ogier was using phone on the road section, and as you can read from the above, it's neither safe or legal, yet you choose to completely ignore it because you're "a bit of a fan". Ogier and Mikkelsen were caught on tape drifting on the road section just like Tänak, but you choose to ignore it, because their drifts seem "more safe" to you. Can't you see any logical flaws in here?

PS. If you really want to promote safety, start with complaining to FIA about champagne on the podium. What message does it give if drivers drink champagne after the powerstage, but have to drive back to service after that? Even if it's one sip or non-alcoholic champagne, that's what I'd call giving a bad example.

Edit: the post below is even better one to quote for this reply. Please, explain us, how is doing something that is clearly illegal and also dangerous, less damaging than Tänak's driving style? And do you really think that random granny will think that "oh, Ogier's drift is nothing bad, he's driving slowly, so it's all good"? For general public, they both give EXACTLY the same damaging view.

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Originally Posted by AnttiK7

I honestly feel making headlines about the incidents you mentioned would be over reaction. The only one even worth considering is the excessive, but very slow speed sliding, if it was intentional that is, because we can't even tell that from the video. Like I said, maybe Ogier is smart enough to stop playing around when he sees someone filming, who knows.

What we can tell though clearly from the videos is that Tänak is carrying considerable speed, throwing his car into the corners and doing powerslides on public roads, there is no dispute about that. And like I said earlier, the only way to give an honest comparison between everyone's road driving would be to have access and analyse everyone's onboards from liaisons. From the very little we have seen so far, Tänak's driving has been the worst and most damaging for rallying in my eyes. With this message I want to conclude myself from going in circles about the severity and comparison between Ogier's and Tänak's driving, we agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by RaunoK

Just admit it, you're a f*ing hypocrite.
PS. If you really want to promote safety, start with complaining to FIA about champagne on the podium. What message does it give if drivers drink champagne after the powerstage, but have to drive back to service after that? Even if it's one sip or non-alcoholic champagne, that's what I'd call giving a bad example.

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I actually completely agree with the champagne part, but that's for another topic and discussion altogether. Regarding comparisons between Ogier's and Tänak's incidents I have already said enough in the past 30 pages until something new surfaces.

Welcome aboard to all new Estonian forum members!

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

Welcome aboard to all new Estonian forum members!

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I think you would get a lot of new finnish members too if the name on thread would be Latvala. Or belgians if it would be Neuville.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAomAwIwxm8

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Originally Posted by AnttiK7

I actually completely agree with the champagne part, but that's for another topic and discussion altogether. Regarding comparisons between Ogier's and Tänak's incidents I have already said enough in the past 30 pages until something new surfaces.

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You're saying you don't approve using phones, but your actions and explanations are pretty much passive approval. You consider showing off clearly more damaging than something that's (also) clearly both dangerous and illegal. You consider one guy's showing off more damaging than others. How is that not hypocritical?

As I already said, for general public, both of those drifting incidents are identical. You might argue one is safer/slower/whatever than the other, but to some random pal who holds a grudge against rally, they're both reckless. So I don't really see a difference here.


PS. Thanks Hartusvuori, been reading this forum for quite some time, it was about time to register too :)

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Originally Posted by RaunoK

As I already said, for general public, both of those drifting incidents are identical. You might argue one is safer/slower/whatever than the other, but some random pal who holds a grudge against rally, they're both reckless. So I don't really see a difference here.

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This is true. But I don't think it's AnttiK7's intention to put the blame on Tänak in particular, but to give awareness to FIA that the drivers are doing this? As a matter of fact, they must be aware of it already, but have just realized that they don't have any power or resources to do anything about it, other than letting the police make their decisions.

I want to also clarify that as a Finn I'm super happy about Tänak doing well in the Toyota. I also posted it during the rally

As one of the people who is anti hooning on public roads maybe let me state that I don't think that any of the drivers should get sanctioned for anything that happened in Monte Carlo since it seems a common behaviour.

What I'd like the FIA to do is to have a briefing with all the drivers and to tell them that it is a no-go and introduce to everyone at the same time what sort of penalties will be given out if a driver is caught breaking the law. They could enforce it on the basis of onboard camera evidence coupled with looking at the telemetry, so you can see who breaks the speed limit and who commits to inapropriate driving behaviour.

A solution to the tire warming issue could be that they would block a piece of road before the stage, however long it needs to be, so they can zick-zack and do heavy breaking to get heat into the tires and breaks safely.

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?

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Originally Posted by Watson

As one of the people who is anti hooning on public roads maybe let me state that I don't think that any of the drivers should get sanctioned for anything that happened in Monte Carlo since it seems a common behaviour.

What I'd like the FIA to do is to have a briefing with all the drivers and to tell them that it is a no-go and introduce to everyone at the same time what sort of penalties will be given out if a driver is caught breaking the law. They could enforce it on the basis of onboard camera evidence coupled with looking at the telemetry, so you can see who breaks the speed limit and who commits to inapropriate driving behaviour.

A solution to the tire warming issue could be that they would block a piece of road before the stage, however long it needs to be, so they can zick-zack and do heavy breaking to get heat into the tires and breaks safely.

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?

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Very good ideas!

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?[/QUOTE]

It may mean closing a section of public road for this to happen 'legally' and I am not sure if this is possible for all stages at all events, as I believe some countries do not allow road closures for motor sport.

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Originally Posted by T16

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?

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It may mean closing a section of public road for this to happen 'legally' and I am not sure if this is possible for all stages at all events, as I believe some countries do not allow road closures for motor sport.[/QUOTE]

Also, in many cases liason road on a tarmac with a junction to the stage road is often used for normal traffic. Doing the warm up area at the beginning of the stage road could be somewhat difficult as well and at least shorten the stage distance by a kilometre or so.

But nevertheless constructive idea!

Just a simple question:

Why would it be needed to have liason especially for sliding for spectators? Have I missed something here?

To me sliding and reving is on the stages. Proposal denied.

(Having said that, above has nothing to do with main topic about OT. I already cleared my view on it.)

https://youtu.be/_5fQZhv0poU

Footage of Antti. I understand him now.

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

Just a simple question:

Why would it be needed to have liason especially for sliding for spectators? Have I missed something here?

To me sliding and reving is on the stages. Proposal denied.

(Having said that, above has nothing to do with main topic about OT. I already cleared my view on it.)

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I wasn't suggesting an area for sliding, but for warming up tires and breaks.

Edit: I also talked about the Tanak's, Ogier's, Mikkelsen's and anyone who hasn't been caught on camera-'s incident and a way to get a handle on it. Very much so. Please read again.

I just came up with it before I posted it so I know it is likely to be flawed in some ways but maybe we can work that out collectively. Or someone comes up with better ideas.

So in summary the thread went something like this:
- Ogier uses his phone while driving on a main road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Ogier is filmed going sideways past a van on a public road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Mikkleson is filmed going sideways on a public road.
Antti: I’m OK with that”.
- Evans is filmed going sideways on a public road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Tänak is filmed entertaining a few of his fans at the side of a quiet road by wheel spinning at a snails pace.
Antti: “Ban that f*cker! I’m making a formal complaint to the FIA!”

You are everything that is wrong with patriotic idiots. Now put your panties back on and move away from the PC before you embarrass yourself even more.

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Originally Posted by Mr C1412

So in summary the thread went something like this:
- Ogier uses his phone while driving on a main road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Ogier is filmed going sideways past a van on a public road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Mikkleson is filmed going sideways on a public road.
Antti: I’m OK with that”.
- Evans is filmed going sideways on a public road.
Antti: “I’m OK with that”.
- Tänak is filmed entertaining a few of his fans at the side of a quiet road by wheel spinning at a snails pace.
Antti: “Ban that f*cker! I’m making a formal complaint to the FIA!”

You are everything that is wrong with patriotic idiots. Now put your panties back on and move away from the PC before you embarrass yourself even more.

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1) You messed up the timeline.
2) Abundance of redundance.
3) Can we stop the name-calling?
4) Can we stop the polemic?
5) Can we stop with the stereotypical twitter shitstorm rhetoric?

Enough already. It didn't get us anywhere 30 pages ago. It almost certainly won't help now.

Who said it was in chronological order?

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Originally Posted by Watson

A solution to the tire warming issue could be that they would block a piece of road before the stage, however long it needs to be, so they can zick-zack and do heavy breaking to get heat into the tires and breaks safely.

Does that sound appeasing to everybody?

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This may not be common everywhere, but on this one rally which organization i used to help for 10 years, it was common practice. We closed road to traffic from nearest junction to the SS start - it was anywhere between 200m to 2km. There drivers could do warming up if they wanted.

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Originally Posted by Mr C1412

Who said it was in chronological order?

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Your argument stands and falls with chronology. I was hoping you said it was.

Please also refer to points to points 2) through to 5) since you're answering me.

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Originally Posted by AnttiK7

I honestly feel making headlines about the incidents you mentioned would be over reaction. The only one even worth considering is the excessive, but very slow speed sliding, if it was intentional that is, because we can't even tell that from the video. Like I said, maybe Ogier is smart enough to stop playing around when he sees someone filming, who knows.

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Duude! Have you ever driven rear biased 4 wheel car? On snow? With slicks?
As soon as you touch the pedal the rear steps out. Tänak was not braking the car with the slide (as you would to with a drift) he was just trying to get along. His wheels were pointing straight. He was going uphill on a ice coverd road, i would give it a little gas also. Maybe a little fast but was not over speed limit.

If you don't like how they drive in France alps then you should wright FIA to ban Monte

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Originally Posted by Vahula

Duude! Have you ever driven rear biased 4 wheel car? On snow? With slicks?
As soon as you touch the pedal the rear steps out. Tänak was not braking the car with the slide (as you would to with a drift) he was just trying to get along. His wheels were pointing straight. He was going uphill on a ice coverd road, i would give it a little gas also. Maybe a little fast but was not over speed limit.

If you don't like how they drive in France alps then you should wright FIA to ban Monte

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You're later than Chinese new year. This point was discussed between pages 15 - 20 and you're bringing nothing to the table except more wild ill informed speculation with a dash of pseudo anecdote.

I don't mean to be a dick but you're adding to the mess.

Ok, let's not start going in the same circles again. Everyone who has insulted me, it's all good, I forgive you for the name calling and other nonsense. I mean I don't even know you guys, you don't know me, so what the hell is this. All I see is a nickname and a lot of angry looking insults directed towards me, but I don't even feel anything inside when I read them, as the insults don't feel in any way descriptive about me. Life is way too short for this kind of nonsense honestly, let's just move on from that. I know very well that nothing in life is black and white. But I have also learnt to become more opinionated about things that mean something to me and perhaps that gets translated to messages that are sometimes more black and white than they should. I am very nostalgic about WRC's past, I follow the present intensely and I am also progressive and want the sport to change for the better when thinking about the future, all at the same time. And that can be quite conflicting actually sometimes. From that point I can understand why some people have brought up my videos and different elements of my passion that don't support these views. But this kind of thinking is equally part of my passion for rallying. I don't want something to stay the same because it has 'always' been like that. That's the way it is. And that's why this topic was created in the first place. That is why I have contacted FIA personally and why I would like to see things changed.

Anyway Watson actually has extremely constructive and good ideas, best ones in this topic so far, and we should concentrate the discussion along those lines if you want to keep discussing in this topic, rather than go back to going in silly circles. I guess discussing about anything is a process, the discussion starts from somewhere and continues somewhere and eventually ends somewhere but you can't see the journey from the beginning. C´est la vie. Good night.

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Originally Posted by Watson

I don't mean to be a dick.

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I would hate to see you try.

to keep it short - did you send other video to FIA? or just one video of Ott and asking to ban him?

That would clear loads of emotions.... or create a new ones... if you dare to answer. because now loads of emotions but not clear whatyou have done and what not

8 pages of arguing over some fun...

real life must be really hard for you guys....