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I think many religious people think being gay is the choice of the individual because they assume they wish to be different. Because homosexuality is frowned upon so much they don't accept it's occurred by natural means because it allows them to remain intolerant. I don't believe people choose to experiment and stick with it because you have to have the natural urge in the first place. There must be something there in the first place IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Of course there must. The same is true of any curiosity — they don't come out of nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Some gay guys I have been speaking to have told me that they were attracted to women up until the age of 16 or 17 and then they realized they found men more attractive and forgot about women. Others have had that realization much later in life. I don't see it as a big deal either way. It has absolutely no impact on my life if two men have sex. It has been going on since the stone age and will continue to do so. Why offer resistance that which you can't change? Can there be anything more futile or insane than trying to change what already is? I accept gay people and everyone as they are. If every one else did the same and realized we were all entitled to our opinions the world would be a far better place.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Coincidentally to this discussion, here is a very pleasing piece on much the same subject:
Rob Portman commentary: Gay couples also deserve chance to get married | The Columbus Dispatch
If you're gay I am confounded even more that you do not accept the fact that you are "different" and that you take exception to being what you seem to view as labeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
You do not find 'cause for resentment when one member states that homosexuality is a "biological phenomenon". Why?
Personally, I do not have any issue with gays, gay marriage or cohabitating.
Maybe if Ben was the first man ever to be Homosexual, then maybe that is a valid view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
What you actually mean is Ben is different to YOU.
Is being rich the 'norm'? If so, I am different!
The reason I object is partly because of your language — you make homosexuals sound ill by describing them as having a 'serious anomaly' — and partly because the differentiation, labelling, call it what you will, is pointless. Heterosexual people are 'different' from me, but I wouldn't make an issue of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
Because we don't know what the root cause is, and nor do I care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
as is heterosexuality ! ... what is exactly your problem? :dozey:Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
This sums it up perfectly for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden
I assume the major concern for some people is that "marriage" for what its worth is a religious title for a relationship between Man & Woman and if a Religion is against Homosexuality then they can't allow the use of the term marriage for a relationship between Man & Man or Woman & Woman?
The balance may be a fully legal "marriage for gay couples with everything set in stone like a marriage, but due to religious intolerance maybe the title has to be something different.
(This is not my view, but me thinking why some may be against it)
Where have I shown I have a problem? Because I used language you disagree with does not make me incorrect and you correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
It is unfortunate for those born as homosexual as I'm sure many would agree. Coming to terms with it is a brave and considerable effort.
I have already stated that I do not have any have any issue with those that are gay.
Heterosexuality is NOT a phenomenon!
Alright, it's a biological occurrence or circumstance then. As is homosexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
It's not your language I disagree with, but the thoughts you convey with it. You clearly have issues.
Do you feel homosexuality is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
I must say, for someone who says they don't have any 'issue' with gay people you put your views on the subject a little oddly, at all times as though you are desperate to stress the 'differences' between those who are gay and those who are straight.
Most Homophobes are closet homosexuals that are afraid and really pissed off of what their true feelings and urges are.
So instead of accepting it, they lash out at it towards others hoping that it will disappear.
Let me give you some advice, it won't go away.
Oh, and for the record, please come out, I will not judge you because I see nothing wrong with your sexual preference as long as you don't try to ram it in my face. The same goes for your religious, political or any other of your preferences and beliefs.
:s ailor: :andrea:Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
It seems to me you come across as being biased along with that language you choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
I could politely say that some people are less capable of learning than others, and that it is an unfortunate phenomenon. On the other hand I could say I don't have a problem with the stupid mouth breathers, as they are such freaks of nature they can't help being dense.
You don't seem to differentiate between the two methods.
The "thoughts" you convey. Specifically what thoughts would they be?Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
You do not know or will ever know the thoughts conveyed by one on a forum.
It's an insult to me and mine that you take this bold step which is more egregious than my stating what is written in the medical and scientific communities when describing homosexuality.
I have a gay individual in my family and do not have anything other than love and respect for them. I feel sad that they have to be careful when they go out lest some buffoon takes it upon themselves to express their heterosexuality when in fact they may be ignoring their homosexuality.
[quote="race aficionado"]Most Homophobes are closet homosexuals that are afraid and really pissed off of what their true feelings and urges are.
So instead of accepting it, they lash out at it towards others hoping that it will disappear.
Let me give you some advice, it won't go away.
If this is an attempt to label me as a closet gay then go with it. It does not matter to me one way or another. It does matter to me when it is another individual that is labelled. Be it a correct assumption or not then by your own words through innuendo you have now through stealth by not actually referring to me me cast me as a closet gay.
If that is your opinion then you sir/madam are as guilty as those who take internet bullying to the real world and cause harm.
Spafranco, this was nor personally aimed at you, it's just a general personal observation.
Notice that the word "all" was not used.
Again, just an observation.
Homosexuality: A Biological Anomaly : The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease
Homosexuality, type 1: an Xq28 phenomenon.
Turner WJ.
Source
Department of Psychiatry, State University of New York at Stony Brook, New York 11794, USA
Despite the absence of phenotypic manifestations in alternating generations characteristic of X-linked disorders, a thesis is presented that a major type of Kinsey grades 5 and 6 male homosexuality is determined by a gene in the Xq28 region.
If not aimed at me then who?Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
Just to be clear, I do not hold a grudge with anyone who disapproves of my opinion or others that disagree with opinions stated by others. We all learn by meaningful intelligent dialogue.
As long as it is not guns and politics :)
.... and sexual preferences?
We can all learn from our diversity.
The thoughts you convey with expressions like "very serious biological anomaly" or "biological mishap they have to endure".Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
Save me the theatrical outrage and show me where these expressions are written in the medical and scientific communities when describing homosexuality.
Why are you are so offended by what I write when I am showing you exactly where these expressions originate.Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Theatrics! Outrage! Neither applies to me but if you take a good look in the mirror you may get the answer to your own questions which I assume are questions since the is no question mark.
NIH reprinted in NHB and Lancet.
"In 1991, an autopsy study by Simon LeVay at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego found that part of the brain called the anterior hypothalamus was twice as large in heterosexual men as in homosexual men, suggesting a biological anomaly for homosexuality. Because the gay men were active sexually with other homosexuals is it wise to make a determination that DNA or a genetic alteration causing the individuals sexuality to be altered to such an extent that the simple structure of genetic markers results in the anomaly of homosexuality be it male or female, and sexual attraction to the same sex".
Why are you so avidly aggressive when all I am doing is stating fact. I have said it once and not again. I have no reason nor inclination to have feelings of bigotry towards gay people.
Well I think this little tidbit explains some of the terminology used. If medical publications are still using such terms I'm sure they are struck decade in the past.
From one of the above posted links:
Journal of Nervous & Mental Disease:
January 1944 - Volume 99 - Issue 1 - ppg 65-70
Original Articile: PDF Only
Note the date!
From one of the above posted links:Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
s:
Ah, I see. You see something contained in the article and straight away you dismiss it. I suppose that means that ALS was not a disease until Lou Gehrig came along.
Argumentum ad novitatem: just because something is new does not make it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
(The opposite being argumentum ad antiquitatem: being old does not make something right.)
As to that brain matter
Cum hoc propter hoc: Correlation does not prove causation.
Latin is such a beautiful language.
Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre? - Is that a scroll in your toga, or are you just happy to see me?Quote:
Originally Posted by call_me_andrew
:D
I get that impression from you too, actually. Don't quite understand why the donKey and others are so unhappy with your writing... :erm:Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
Why don't we all :kiss: and make up? :D
Because you wanted a debate on this issue? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTroll
The way I see it, Spafranco and the others actually see the thing in pretty much the same light. There's nothing to debate. :) Except the minor issue of terminology. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Now, if Roamy joined in - then we would have something to debate, I'm sure. :D
Then I'd better retire strategically...... :devil:Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTroll
Good, now we can all start the day like happy campers :)
I didn't dismiss anything, or use it as a way to take a shot at you either. Being an older article it's more likely to use terminology that is less kind or PC if you will. Being that the world tends to be more PC these days it's rather expected, which is probably why some of us took your use of such terminology out of context. Once you posted this link I more understood your position and I'm sorry if I was one of the people that misjudged your earlier posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
In the end since most of us aren't real life personal friends, we only have typed words to gauge people by. I hope you can see how your typed words came across as less polite than some other terms, which probably caused the poor judgements made by some of us. In either case you later typed words clarified your view, and I'm not about to deem anyone dishonest unless I have solid evidence to prove it correct. I'm glad you clarified your views, and once again apologize for doubting it earlier.
As an example of such subtle changes, my daughter is hoping to be accepted into a local academy program and we attended a function there on Saturday. They no longer teach "foreign languages" due to the fact that it somewhat alienates the other culture. They now teach "global languages" as showing that they are more accepting of the other cultures. Same intentions, just different choices of words.
We already accept that you are not a homophobe ET. You don't have to start kissing men to prove it! :) In this instance I'd admit being much more open minded to a first bump or manly shoulder bump.Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTroll
That is kind of you and I accept the apology although it was not necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
I work in a field where one says something in public and something else to co-workers. Unfortunately , that may have come across where my posts are concerned.
I am glad you brought that PC issue up about language. I never heard or read of anything related to that.
PC is good in some areas but when one has to think prior to making a comment then that is where it falls flat on it's face.
a) I'm not offended at all. :dozey:Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
b) You're not showing where very serious anomaly or mishap originate at all. They are your own expressions.
c) When I ask a question, I use question marks. Try it! :p
"Very serious" is not fact, it's a subjective qualification - your own interpretation. "Mishap" is also arguable, don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
Clearly you feel no bigotry towards gay people. Your intentions are good and you don't need to keep repeating how much you love and respect your gay family member. Nobody is asking you to. To be honest I couldn't care less how he may or may not feel when you label him as having a very serious anomaly or pity him for having to endure his mishap, or whether or not you are capable of self-reflection when these terms are questioned.
p.s. Avidly aggressive? Look in the mirror?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spafranco
Its a difficult one this and not one that can be easily explained. I think Spafranco's intentions are very different to how his wording has been greeted here. I've left this thread alone for a week or so but discussed this very topic with two gay men at the weekend and their opinion is not what some of you would expect. They felt although homosexuality is a natural phenomenon much like heterosexuality, but it is a mix up of sorts. I questioned deeper and asked if they thought they were abnormal in their sexuality and the response was that they are normal, but a minority in the grand scheme of things. Its not like we are going to be wiped out any time soon. :)
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