another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

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Originally Posted by Starter

No, the real point is people dying because of the action of others. You get much more (pardon the pun) bang for the buck by addressing highway fatalities.

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So a road accident (stress on the latter word) that kills 20 kids ought not to cause anyone any more concern or moral outrage than a mentally ill man shooting 20 kids dead in their school? Interesting moral code by which you live.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

And you don't think that is being addressed already?

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Not adequately.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Actually, we can blame your country for all of the death and destruction in the middle east because if not for Germany the country of Israel would not exist, nor would there ever have been a need for it. But that's off topic for sure and I apologize to everyone for taking it there.

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I am not German. And, as someone who no doubt believes in the concept of personal responsibility, it is quite incredible for you to blame anyone other than those authorising and carrying out the acts of violence themselves in the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I agree - but the monumental task of disarming the American public may cause more trouble than it hopes to solve.

I don't profess to know the answer, but I think (and this thread is testament) there is a deep seated attitude toward firearms in the States that you'd be hard pressed to change.

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Thank you for seeing the truth. Too many people have unrealistic expectations as to what parts of reality it is possible to change. It matters little what you attitude toward guns may be, the reality is that they are ingrained in our society and exist here in larger numbers than can possibly be taken away. Should the government try and seize them, then there will for sure be another civil war here. I am not saying that because I am a gun owner (which I am), but because it is the truth of the matter.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Thank you for seeing the truth. Too many people have unrealistic expectations as to what parts of reality it is possible to change. It matters little what you attitude toward guns may be, the reality is that they are ingrained in our society and exist here in larger numbers than can possibly be taken away. Should the government try and seize them, then there will for sure be another civil war here. I am not saying that because I am a gun owner (which I am), but because it is the truth of the matter.

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And, as an outsider, I find this very concerning.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Thank you for seeing the truth. Too many people have unrealistic expectations as to what parts of reality it is possible to change. It matters little what you attitude toward guns may be, the reality is that they are ingrained in our society and exist here in larger numbers than can possibly be taken away.

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Guns should never be 'ingrained' in any society. Guns are in no sense a force for good, except perhaps in terms of some sporting use.

I know! An increase of gun-tax :idea:

ok maybe not :p :andrea:

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

I know! An increase of gun-tax :idea:

ok maybe not :p :andrea:

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You'd wipe out the national debt overnight.......... :p

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

So a road accident (stress on the latter word) that kills 20 kids ought not to cause anyone any more concern or moral outrage than a mentally ill man shooting 20 kids dead in their school? Interesting moral code by which you live.

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You certainly do like to claim meanings not in evidence and quotes out of context, don't you? It basically makes all of your posts not worth reading as they are nothing more than an attempt to divert attention from points which you apparently have no substantive answer to..

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

You'd wipe out the national debt overnight.......... http://www.motorsportforums.com/imag...ies/tongue.gif

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or cause another credit crunch :(

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Guns should never be 'ingrained' in any society.

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Please tell us what that has to do with reality?

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Originally Posted by Starter

You certainly do like to claim meanings not in evidence and quotes out of context, don't you? It basically makes all of your posts not worth reading as they are nothing more than an attempt to divert attention from points which you apparently have no substantive answer to..

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No, my question was based entirely on the content of your post. You seemed not to understand why anyone would find a shooting of schoolchildren more worthy of comment than, say, a road accident that resulted in the same number of casualties. Several of your posts have sought to downplay the significance of what happened last week by making comparisons with, for example, deaths in other countries, or other events causing comparable death tolls. I would question this. Now do you see why my comment towards you was relevant?

As for my lack of a substantive answer — rubbish. I would have thought my personal view as to the answer was immediately obvious: end the gun culture.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Please tell us what that has to do with reality?

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It's the reality in most countries that guns are not 'ingrained' in society. This is what it has to do with 'reality'.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Thank you for seeing the truth. Too many people have unrealistic expectations as to what parts of reality it is possible to change. It matters little what you attitude toward guns may be, the reality is that they are ingrained in our society and exist here in larger numbers than can possibly be taken away. Should the government try and seize them, then there will for sure be another civil war here. I am not saying that because I am a gun owner (which I am), but because it is the truth of the matter.

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But might it perhaps be possible to 'downgrade' the sort of guns owned by members of the general public?
Surely it should never be necessary to have anything more than a handgun for the purpose of home protection, and yet I recently came across something on the telly:
An episode of Sons of Guns (TV-show, I know, but hardly a farfetched fantasy), a man walks in with a revolver and asks for repairs to it, as he had just acquired it from somewhere, cant remember the story of it.. Well, anyway, he is asked what he needs it for, 'Just home protection', and the next thing you hear: 'Have you thought of a shotgun?'. So we now move from a handgun to a shotgun to protect our home? Why does that sound like more of a business decision than a security assessment?
I understand that guns are most likely part of US society, so the only possibility must be reduction as opposed to complete removal.

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Originally Posted by ChristianArp

But might it perhaps be possible to 'downgrade' the sort of guns owned by members of the general public?

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Some of the gun owners on here I wouldn't trust with a knitting needle, so the question of competency is a relevant one.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Some of the gun owners on here I wouldn't trust with a knitting needle, so the question of competency is a relevant one.

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I must profess to not knowing anyone on here well enough to make that assessment, but I totally see your point.
And looking at the sort of small-army-arsenals that some recent nutters have been able to legally procure is where my proposal comes from. Assault rifle ammunition pieces running into the thousands should not be allowed for any private person in my opinion, and yet it seems perfectly reasonable in areas of the States?

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Originally Posted by ChristianArp

But might it perhaps be possible to 'downgrade' the sort of guns owned by members of the general public?

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Possible to do more of that. It would require a long period of time to achieve, but possible.

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Surely it should never be necessary to have anything more than a handgun for the purpose of home protection, and yet I recently came across something on the telly:
An episode of Sons of Guns (TV-show, I know, but hardly a farfetched fantasy), a man walks in with a revolver and asks for repairs to it, as he had just acquired it from somewhere, cant remember the story of it.. Well, anyway, he is asked what he needs it for, 'Just home protection', and the next thing you hear: 'Have you thought of a shotgun?'. So we now move from a handgun to a shotgun to protect our home? Why does that sound like more of a business decision than a security assessment?

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From a practical point of view, it's a very reasonable recommendation. A shot gun loaded with 00 buckshot is a very effective close range weapon. Easier to hit an intruder in a stressful situation or in the dark - though the collateral damage to furniture and walls will be greater. Get a pump action one. In many cases just the sound of chambering a round will get that nasty person headed the other way.

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Originally Posted by ChristianArp

I must profess to not knowing anyone on here well enough to make that assessment, but I totally see your point.
And looking at the sort of small-army-arsenals that some recent nutters have been able to legally procure is where my proposal comes from. Assault rifle ammunition pieces running into the thousands should not be allowed for any private person in my opinion, and yet it seems perfectly reasonable in areas of the States?

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A common misconception is that assault weapons are legal here. They are not. Manufacturers make models which resemble them for marketing purposes, but they are assault weapons in appearance only.

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Originally Posted by Starter

From a practical point of view, it's a very reasonable recommendation. A shot gun loaded with 00 buckshot is a very effective close range weapon. Easier to hit an intruder in a stressful situation or in the dark - though the collateral damage to furniture and walls will be greater. Get a pump action one. In many cases just the sound of chambering a round will get that nasty person headed the other way.

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I see your point, but then by your reasoning an assault rifle makes even more sense - just load up a full magazine and then unload it on the intruder?
Whichever way you look at it, a handgun will still be plenty to injure anyone enough that their primal instincts will have them looking very fast for a way out of your house? With the added benefits that it slows down what seems to be an arms race contested by completely regular people..

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Originally Posted by henners88

And here is me with the old fashioned deadlock on the front door, burglar alarm with activated zones and a phone by my bed lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Overpriced crap, please!

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Originally Posted by henners88

And here is me with the old fashioned deadlock on the front door, burglar alarm with activated zones and a phone by my bed lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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That is a good point henners. Around here the risk of home invasion is minimal to begin with, and further minimized with proper security measures as to make gun ownership for the purpose of protection effectively redundant. I would go so far as to argue that the risk of injury with merely having a gun in my home is far greater than the risk of home invasion to begin with :mark: .

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Originally Posted by ChristianArp

I see your point, but then by your reasoning an assault rifle makes even more sense - just load up a full magazine and then unload it on the intruder?
Whichever way you look at it, a handgun will still be plenty to injure anyone enough that their primal instincts will have them looking very fast for a way out of your house? With the added benefits that it slows down what seems to be an arms race contested by completely regular people..

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Very true. But practice regularly so that you can hit what you aim at.

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Originally Posted by henners88

And here is me with the old fashioned deadlock on the front door, burglar alarm with activated zones and a phone by my bed lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I am sure that you will be able to hold the criminal at bay with a rousing chat, while waiting for the police to respond from the alarm or phone call. ;)

Ban bullets.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Very true. But practice regularly so that you can hit what you aim at.

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Exactly what I'm trying to say: if you just spend a bit of effort, the need for more than a handgun should never exist for purposes that - to my mind, it must be said - should never require a firearm, yet it is wrongly accepted to keep high power guns 'just in case'.
It is reality, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a broken reality.

I'll go to bed, safe in the knowledge that I've got an easy way out of the house should something happen (why confront the baddie?), knowing that everything is locked - and I live three houses from the regional headquarters of a massive biker-gang that is in the middle of a turf war..

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Originally Posted by Bezza

This was a truly shocking event. There should be tighter gun regulations in the USA, for sure. However, the gun didn't go off by itself - what is more important is that it is found out why this man did what he did, and how this can be stopped in future. If it wasn't a gun, he could've used something else (albeit probably to a lesser degree).

The focus should be on getting to the root of the problem, not just banning guns. The guns were the tool used, the cause was the mind of the perpetrator.

Video games have nothing to do with this either. Anybody of sane rationality knows the vast difference between reality and a computer game.

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This is an interesting concept, when one considers that the guy who shot the children reportedly spent many, many hours playing violent video games, and had access to his mothers firearms. I doubt many here would argue that this guy was "of sane rationality"

But seeing there are already 200 plus million firearms in the United States of America, I cannot see how any gun control could possibly be activated.

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Originally Posted by Starter

I am sure that you will be able to hold the criminal at bay with a rousing chat, while waiting for the police to respond from the alarm or phone call. ;)

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Actually, my nephew was a victim of a home invasion three days ago. 4 guys came to his apartment,and when he opened the door they demanded that he come outside. My nephew said"Like NO! and they kicked the screen door down, he ran away from them while they were punching his head, tore his shirt, but he finally made it to his bedroom and locked the door and called the cops.

Now if these 4 guys had guns, even if my nephew was armed, he would have been killed.

I have a German built assault weapon that is incredibly effective at detering murders and rapists to such an extent that most nights I forget to lock my door. As an added bonus, it also keeps my feet warm by lying on them. :D

I researched AnthonyVop's 'statistics' on the UK crime rates and compared them to America. America has done very well in the last few years at reducing the Murder rate in the US. It has dropped from 8.1 per 100k in 1995 to a mere 4.8 in 2010. That is really good news but if I was a US citizen, I would want to see it reduce even more. It may take a long time to get down to the UK rate of 1.2 but it's worth doing. You will never cut it out completely and it's going to be tough but isn't it worth doing?

Please guys, get over the constitution a bit here. Removing the right to bear arms will not make your Government suddenly turn into a Dictatorship that removes all your freedom rights. Your Government will always do what the Lobby groups tell them. Nothing will change that.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Perhaps we should all try and get a sense of perspective about what the world is really like instead of what we would like it to be.

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Does law have a hand in shaping and guiding a culture? If not, then why is it that Australia happened to have more deaths due to accidental electrocution than by people using guns? How is it that Australia happens to have less deaths in a year than the United States has on any given day?

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Originally Posted by Starter

Very true. But practice regularly so that you can hit what you aim at.

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This goes for practically everything, including enacting law to "insure domestic Tranquility".

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Originally Posted by Starter

I am sure that you will be able to hold the criminal at bay with a rousing chat, while waiting for the police to respond from the alarm or phone call. ;)

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I don't think he worries that much about it, to be honest. Most non-Americans don't seem to.

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Originally Posted by ChristianArp

I'll go to bed, safe in the knowledge that I've got an easy way out of the house should something happen (why confront the baddie?)

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Therein perhaps lies a point about those who advocate the possession of guns — that they may dress it up in issues relating to the constitution, keeping the government at bay and so forth, but really, possibly subconsciously, they like the idea of some day confronting someone with their gun. There is certainly a certain glee attached to gun ownership that seems to go beyond theoretical, constitutional notions.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I have a German built assault weapon that is incredibly effective at detering murders and rapists to such an extent that most nights I forget to lock my door. As an added bonus, it also keeps my feet warm by lying on them. :D

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You see, to me the presence of a dog would almost be more of a deterrent than would the ownership of a firearm.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

There is certainly a certain glee attached to gun ownership that seems to go beyond theoretical, constitutional notions.

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Is .223 the Best Home Defense Caliber? - Guns & Ammo
There are a number of factors behind this—increased exposure to the weapon system via media, fears of terrorism and the realization of just how fun the darn things are to shoot.
- Guns & Ammo magazine, 10th Feb 2012

Same caliber as the one used to destroy 20 children... so much "fun".

I've been on some firearms forums, and some keep citing the Australian gun buyback program. This video keeps getting plastered over and over again about how defenseless Australian's became once they no longer had access to firearms, and how there was a spike in home invasion robberies. I'm not sure if it's smart to cite Australia because homicides and suicides plummeted after the gun buyback scheme. Any Ozzy's here who can shed a bit more light on this issue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPGBXqaF2dg

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

I've been on some firearms forums, and some keep citing the Australian gun buyback program. This video keeps getting plastered over and over again about how defenseless Australian's became once they no longer had access to firearms, and how there was a spike in home invasion robberies. I'm not sure if it's smart to cite Australia because homicides and suicides plummeted after the gun buyback scheme. Any Ozzy's here who can shed a bit more light on this issue?

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The video dates from 1997 and it doesn't surprise me that this would be trotted out now, a video clip which is 15 years old has almost no relevance now.

"Gun laws that have backfired" - 4:36
Bollocks they have.

Gun deaths halved in past 10 years - www.theage.com.au
After the massacre, tough gun laws were enacted across Australia, specifically targeting military-style weapons, which resulted in hundreds of thousands of weapons being destroyed.
The number of deaths caused by firearms dropped almost 50 per cent between 1991 and 2001, with the biggest yearly fall in deaths coming after the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

Gun deaths in rapid decline since buyback - National - smh.com.au
The new report, titled Australia's 1996 Gun Law Reforms: Faster Falls in Firearm Deaths, Firearm Suicides and a Decade without Mass Shootings, finds that in the 18 years before the gun buyback there were an average of 492 firearm suicides a year.
After the introduction of the buyback scheme, that figure dropped to 247 in the seven years for which reliable figures are available.

Perhaps most telling is the statistic from 2011:
Homicide and related offences:
Homicide - with firearms: 30
(source) - 1301.0 - Year Book Australia, 2012

Sadly, I feel as if it's after September 11th again, and fear is going to lead Americans into stupid decisions (unPATRIOTic Act). For example, Rick Perry (Governor of Texas) has stated that he wants Texas to be ready for a gun-wielding attack in schools. There's discussion of making the "guardian plan" a statewide law.

Texas school where teachers carry guns prepared to protect students | Crime and Safety |...

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Perhaps most telling is the statistic from 2011:
Homicide and related offences:
Homicide - with firearms: 30
(source) - 1301.0 - Year Book Australia, 2012

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Thanks. I thought this video was full of crap!

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

For example, Rick Perry (Governor of Texas) has stated that he wants Texas to be ready for a gun-wielding attack in schools.

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That such a statement can even be made speaks volumes. In most other countries, it would be like saying schools should be ready for an airliner crashing into them. It could happen, but to make specific preparations would be laughable.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Thanks. I thought this video was full of crap!

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I don't know about "full of crap" but it isn't very appropriate now. I'm sure that those people had very real sentiments fifteen years ago. Heck even the splash screen shows a VT Commodore as the police car; they stopped production in 2000 which was four; soon to be five models ago.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I don't know about "full of crap" but it isn't very appropriate now. I'm sure that those people had very real sentiments fifteen years ago. Heck even the splash screen shows a VT Commodore as the police car; they stopped production in 2000 which was four; soon to be five models ago.

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Yeah, I see what you're saying. Those people were directly affected by the buyback scheme. I just can't see how that's relevant to the school shooting in Shady Hook. Furthermore, as you alluded to earlier, the results of getting rid of those firearms was a net positive for a everyone's quality of life in Australia.

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Originally Posted by Starter

A common misconception is that assault weapons are legal here. They are not. Manufacturers make models which resemble them for marketing purposes, but they are assault weapons in appearance only.

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That's not entirely accurate. It is perfectly legal for properly licensed private citizens to own fully automatic weapons in several states. I have such a license and have owned the military versions of the AR15. I own the semi automatic civilian versions you described and there are substantial differences. i reality, there is little difference between them and many hunting rifles capable or far more damge.

I"ll fully admit, other than the sheer enjoyment we get from shooting them, there is little rational need for a fully automatic weapon and I no longer own any fully automatic weapons because even I can't justify owning one with even the worst case scenarios. That is not however what the shooter was using.


The shootings Friday are an unfathomable tragedy, as a parent, a former teacher and as a human being, but I still fully defend the rights given to me by the founders of this country and I defend that as vehemently as I defend my beliefs in the holy bible. The key issue with every one of these mass shootings has been inadequately treated mental illness. THAT iswhat is not being adequately addressed, and yet we will end up with ineffective hap-hazzard knee-jerk legislation that takes the right to defend oneself against people like this before the f#&#ed-up leaders of this country spends a second of time or a dime of public money improving the access to mental health care for the vast majority of our country.