Same Sex Marriage

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Did you never invite your mates round for tea?

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Nope, we always met outside on the play grounds.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But maybe on a divine level things are different....

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Yep, completely different because here is no such thing.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But maybe on a divine level things are different....
Spirituality isn't necessarily related to practical effects.
Civil marriages can be ( and in time maybe they will be everywhere ) legalised by a human authority but nobody can impose a gay wedding to the clergy. In religion we don't have laws but dogmas.

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I don't care one jot about 'the divine level'. It's meaningless to me.

I do not feel that forcing churches to allow same sex marriage is the correct thing to do.

Yes, if any other organisation was allowed to discriminate on grounds of sexuality it would be wrong. But I would like to give the church the chance to prove to us that it isn't inherently homophobic and intolerent. If certain churches refused weddings for same sex couples then I'm sure these cases would come to the attention of the media.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I do not feel that forcing churches to allow same sex marriage is the correct thing to do.

Yes, if any other organisation was allowed to discriminate on grounds of sexuality it would be wrong. But I would like to give the church the chance to prove to us that it isn't inherently homophobic and intolerent.

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Yes, and thereby move on in line with society.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Yes, and thereby move on in line with society.

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But do you honestly think the church would move on? After all, people still believe that it is acceptable to refuse to sell their bed and breakfast service to gay couples.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

But do you honestly think the church would move on?

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At some indeterminate point, I think the Church of England increasingly will.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

After all, people still believe that it is acceptable to refuse to sell their bed and breakfast service to gay couples.

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I am thinking of opening a B&B in order solely to refuse entry to Conservative and UKIP voters.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

At some indeterminate point, I think the Church of England increasingly will.



I am thinking of opening a B&B in order solely to refuse entry to Conservative and UKIP voters.

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But what if William Hague wanted to stay with his special advisor?

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

But what if William Hague wanted to stay with his special advisor?

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That would never happen, and I find it disgraceful that you would commit such a slur.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Absolute rubbish, absurd comparisons like always.

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Sorry. It's a result of living in an absurd place.
But I hate normality anyway..... :laugh:

As for you: same stupid attitude as if anybody who don't share your opinion is a knobhead.

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

Nobody is trying to impose a gay wedding on the clergy. I think (not sure) it's quite the opposite: the (human) law explicitely forbids gay marriage in the Church of England.
It's as if the law were also to forbid woman catholic priests, for example. Why make a (human) law for it ? :rolleyes:

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Matter of religion....
The orthodox christian church is definitely against this kind of marriages. Even if a law adopted by the Parliament wll ever accept a union-marriage this will be only a civil act. Church rules are different and adopted by the synod.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Nope, we always met outside on the play grounds.

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Those who never invited mates in their home used to have something to hide. :laugh:
Usually a wellfare hard to be explained on those times. :D

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't care one jot about 'the divine level'. It's meaningless to me.

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Good for you but once again I come and ask why are you so angry on church regarding same sex mariages? What's the need of the blessing of a meaningless authority?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I am thinking of opening a B&B in order solely to refuse entry to Conservative and UKIP voters.

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As an individual, you should be able to refuse entry to whoever you wish. This is where I don't quite follow the decrimination aspect.

Forcing the issue will only result in resentment by those have been forced, against their wishes, to allow all and sundry entry to their establishment.

You wouldn't allow Mr Tattoo and his mates, pierced beyond belief looking like a meccano set was glued to their face clutching cans of Special Brew in, would you?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Should the bible be changed?

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The Bible is a book. If we change it then we have the right to change every book to adapt its meaning to modern times and become poltically correct. From Shakespear's work to Confucius's, from Francoise Villon's to Dante Alligheri's, etc.

Romeo and Juliet, a modern playright rewritten by Ioan...( sorry Ioan, but since you always ridicule my examples...)
Don Quijote written in donkey jote's style ( sorry donkey, I know you have a good sense of humour to understand it's a joke )
Rappaccini's Daughter improved by the forum's doctor ( sorry Doc, I know you think it's a masterpiece so it can't be improved)

Let's see who dares to change the Koran....

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

The Bible is a book. If we change it then we have the right to change every book to adapt its meaning to modern times and become poltically correct. From Shakespear's work to Confucius's, from Francoise Villon's to Dante Alligheri's, etc.

Romeo and Juliet, a modern playright rewritten by Ioan...( sorry Ioan, but since you always ridicule my examples...)
Don Quijote written in donkey jote's style ( sorry donkey, I know you have a good sense of humour to understand it's a joke )
Rappaccini's Daughter improved by the forum's doctor ( sorry Doc, I know you think it's a masterpiece so it can't be improved)

Let's see who dares to change the Koran....

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I see where you are coming from, and understand the principal.

However, the Bible advocates stoning etc, and I don't really think we should continue doing that. Adjust punishments accordingly.

Does this mean we should change other principals? Personally I don't, and I'm not going to labour my point because I've said my piece already. Others are free to make thier own interpretations etc.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

At some indeterminate point, I think the Church of England increasingly will.



I am thinking of opening a B&B in order solely to refuse entry to Conservative and UKIP voters.

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I know you've said this sarcastically, but its not a comparison. How would you know who votes for who? Would you ask them on their way in?!

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

However, the Bible advocates stoning etc, and I don't really think we should continue doing that. Adjust punishments accordingly.

Does this mean we should change other principals? Personally I don't, and I'm not going to labour my point because I've said my piece already. Others are free to make thier own interpretations etc.

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Just treated myself with a Christmas present, a book by one of my fav authors ( a romanian philosopher ). It's title is Jesus's Parables and the preface says:

"There are questions which can be answered promptly and appropriate. From those of current experience (what number you wear shoes?) To those of scientific expertise (What is gravity?). There are also questions those of early childhood, which seem simple, or surreal, but whose answer calls rather metaphysical talent or imagination: Why does hand five fingers?, Who invented sleep? There are, finally, the questions "big" questions ultimatum, which I like to call "Russian" for doing the dostoievskyan substance of many sleepless nights: What is happiness?, Why does evil exist?, What is the meaning of life?
For such questions, you can not propose a geometric response, but an analogy, a metaphor, a transfigured "detour" . It is the most appropriate solution. Only. Instead of saying, scholar "how things look", saying: "Let's just tell you a story."
In this book will be about the stories told by Jesus in his effort to familiarize others with the metabolism of His kingdom. Task which he assumes is impossible, so is the extent of his divinity:'s talking about unevident things, having to offer help, without falling into the recipe and abuse of doctrine, and has to give not only matter for reflection, but also motivation of life and existential support."


( Now I reckon our mutual friend Ioan will be again smirking at the thought of my absurd examples :laugh :) .

It makes me think that we should look behind the “stories” from the Bible, some of them reflects realities of that time, some of them reflects things that happen on spiritual-divine level that people of that time couldn’t explain.

Coming back to the power of example ( just to annoy Ioan…. ) , let’s just take the common prayer “Give us this day our daily bread” . I’m sure the sense is of a spiritual bread not the material bread as Jesus hasn’t come to feed people.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

The Bible is a book. ....

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That’s an oversimplification. The scripture of the Bible is a recount of the history of how Christianity came to be. This scripture has been revised over the years to benefit the supremacy of the church at any given time. This has resulted in the multiple versions of the Bible we see today.
There is nothing stopping a church from revising yet again :mark: .

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

...Let's see who dares to change the Koran....

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As I understand it the text in the Q’ran has always been the original scripture as transcribed by Muhammad. In fact, Islam forbids any edits or modifications to the text. Thus it is far more a “pure” holy scripture than the Christian bible.

Sorry… off topic here.

Speaking about interpreting the bible correctly:

:)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/21/qu6yzara.jpg

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Good for you but once again I come and ask why are you so angry on church regarding same sex mariages? What's the need of the blessing of a meaningless authority?

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Because the church is preventing people from having equal rights. Quite a big thing, in my book.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

As an individual, you should be able to refuse entry to whoever you wish. This is where I don't quite follow the decrimination aspect.

Forcing the issue will only result in resentment by those have been forced, against their wishes, to allow all and sundry entry to their establishment.

You wouldn't allow Mr Tattoo and his mates, pierced beyond belief looking like a meccano set was glued to their face clutching cans of Special Brew in, would you?

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Yes I would. If I ran a B&B I'd want to be a welcoming host to all, so long as they didn't cause damage, disturbance or so forth. Why would you run a B&B and decide to only be welcoming to a certain group of people? You shouldn't be in the business if that's the case.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

I know you've said this sarcastically, but its not a comparison. How would you know who votes for who? Would you ask them on their way in?!

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The fact of it being said sarcastically indicates that, quite clearly, I don't have a serious answer.

You may as well say the same of a gay couple. How would you know that two men booking in to your establishment and sharing a room were gay? Would you ask them on their way in?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Because the church is preventing people from having equal rights. Quite a big thing, in my book.

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So you don't believe in God but care about his institutions.

Anyway I'm laughing in my beard ( just a saying....) thinking of the wedding service in the orthodox christian church.
It's destinated to hetero people but contains a lot of advice like "the woman should fear of her man", "the woman should be obedient to man because man is woman's head ", etc.
Wouldn't you say that the church is discriminating women?

However I've noticed that all brides don't care about it and are glowing of joy.....

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

The fact of it being said sarcastically indicates that, quite clearly, I don't have a serious answer.

You may as well say the same of a gay couple. How would you know that two men booking in to your establishment and sharing a room were gay? Would you ask them on their way in?

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I agree with you on this! If they had specifically asked for a double-bed then that would be a clue...but I'm not against any of this. They can do what they want and a hotel shouldn't be discriminating on these grounds.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

I agree with you on this! If they had specifically asked for a double-bed then that would be a clue...but I'm not against any of this. They can do what they want and a hotel shouldn't be discriminating on these grounds.

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And this brings us back to comment a few pages back - as in you don't look at couples in the street and wonder what they get up to in bed.

Certainly, you would not turn away decent folk, gay, straight, muslim etc. But you should be able to turn away those you have good reason to consider might cause trouble/damage without them pulling the descrimination card.......

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

And this brings us back to comment a few pages back - as in you don't look at couples in the street and wonder what they get up to in bed.

Certainly, you would not turn away decent folk, gay, straight, muslim etc. But you should be able to turn away those you have good reason to consider might cause trouble/damage without them pulling the descrimination card.......

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Their sexuality is no 'good reason', though, is it? And, if you were to turn people away on that basis, what is it other than discrimination?

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

As for you: same stupid attitude as if anybody who don't share your opinion is a knobhead.

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For once you've got it right. This must be the end of the world! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Those who never invited mates in their home used to have something to hide. :laugh:
Usually a wellfare hard to be explained on those times. :D

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Yeah we were extremely rich and we even had bananas, oranges and pepsi for Christmas! Can you even imagine that?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I see where you are coming from, and understand the principal.

However, the Bible advocates stoning etc, and I don't really think we should continue doing that. Adjust punishments accordingly.

Does this mean we should change other principals? Personally I don't, and I'm not going to labour my point because I've said my piece already. Others are free to make thier own interpretations etc.

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Just burn it and be done with it! :D ;)

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Just treated myself with a Christmas present, a book by one of my fav authors ( a romanian philosopher ). It's title is Jesus's Parables and the preface says:

"There are questions which can be answered promptly and appropriate. From those of current experience (what number you wear shoes?) To those of scientific expertise (What is gravity?). There are also questions those of early childhood, which seem simple, or surreal, but whose answer calls rather metaphysical talent or imagination: Why does hand five fingers?, Who invented sleep? There are, finally, the questions "big" questions ultimatum, which I like to call "Russian" for doing the dostoievskyan substance of many sleepless nights: What is happiness?, Why does evil exist?, What is the meaning of life?
For such questions, you can not propose a geometric response, but an analogy, a metaphor, a transfigured "detour" . It is the most appropriate solution. Only. Instead of saying, scholar "how things look", saying: "Let's just tell you a story."
In this book will be about the stories told by Jesus in his effort to familiarize others with the metabolism of His kingdom. Task which he assumes is impossible, so is the extent of his divinity:'s talking about unevident things, having to offer help, without falling into the recipe and abuse of doctrine, and has to give not only matter for reflection, but also motivation of life and existential support."


( Now I reckon our mutual friend Ioan will be again smirking at the thought of my absurd examples :laugh :) .

It makes me think that we should look behind the “stories” from the Bible, some of them reflects realities of that time, some of them reflects things that happen on spiritual-divine level that people of that time couldn’t explain.

Coming back to the power of example ( just to annoy Ioan…. ) , let’s just take the common prayer “Give us this day our daily bread” . I’m sure the sense is of a spiritual bread not the material bread as Jesus hasn’t come to feed people.

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Believe me, I have found the answers to all those questions because life is very simple as long as you do not over-complicate it yourself.
And BTW I buy my own bread, no need to pray to get it.
In the end it is just a matter of mindset.

I don't have time and patience to read the debate above.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Their sexuality is no 'good reason', though, is it? And, if you were to turn people away on that basis, what is it other than discrimination?

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But should their behaviour give you reason it could adversely impact on other guests, then it is not discriminating to turn them away.

I'd fully expect them to use the discrimination card though......

IMO the whole marriage thing needs to change.

If I could decide, all couple (regardless of being of same or opposite sex) would first have to do a very short
civil/legal process at a courtor a city hall or something. Then every couple could have a ceremony of their like.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yeah we were extremely rich and we even had bananas, oranges and pepsi for Christmas! Can you even imagine that?

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Nonsense! Everybody could afford those on condition to have enough time to waste on queues and enough luck to be in the right store at the right time.

The real symbols of wealth on those times were:
- the freezer ( symbolizing you have too much food to store it in a simple fridge )
- the color TV ( very expensive and hard to get )
- the videoplayer ( only sent by a relative/friend from abroad, otherwise absent in our shops )

But on the countryside where you lived....

O tempora, o mores.....



Good God....And I wanted to be good with you esp. today. LMA again and forgive me.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

But should their behaviour give you reason it could adversely impact on other guests, then it is not discriminating to turn them away.

I'd fully expect them to use the discrimination card though......

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Turning someone away because of what you think they might do is discriminatory. Asking people to leave because of what they have done is not. I don't see how sexuality can be the basis for any sort of snap judgement on what behaviour may or may not occur?

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Originally Posted by Anubis

Turning someone away because of what you think they might do is discriminatory. Asking people to leave because of what they have done is not. I don't see how sexuality can be the basis for any sort of snap judgement on what behaviour may or may not occur?

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And who in their right mind would care about what happens in a bedroom in private?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And who in their right mind would care about what happens in a bedroom in private?

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Good question. Always wanted to know why so many people ( usually men :devil :) are interested in porn magazines and movies.

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Originally Posted by Anubis

Turning someone away because of what you think they might do is discriminatory. Asking people to leave because of what they have done is not. I don't see how sexuality can be the basis for any sort of snap judgement on what behaviour may or may not occur?

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"But should their behaviour" was a key element in my post I think.......