Is There a God?

According to romanian explanatory dictionary "soul" has loads of meanings. From the point of view of idealistic philosophy and as a religious concept soul is defined as spiritual substance that give life to humans, has divine origin and eternal essence.

Another sense is that of "kindness, mercy, humaneness" which explains the "soulless" thing.

In romanian we also use the word "spirit" to describe the ideal factor of existance, opposed to matter.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Given that we're not entirely sure of what things like gravity or mass actually are, describing the soul might be something equally as difficult to empirically prove.



I don't think that we have the ability to even perceive anymore than about 5 dimensions. Certainly in my experience, time is a linear thing that only appears to flow in one direction and as time-travel isn't yet a reality, I don't know if we've managed to fold space-time through the sixth dimension yet.
"Where" a being would get its morality from would be a very strange question to even consider in say the tenth dimension which would encompass all infinities and all possibilities. I'm not surprised that Mr Brown found the explanation/argument inadequate and to be totally frank I can't provide an adequate explanation/argument either if it's going to preside in the tenth dimension which is beyond the limits of our perception anyway.

What if mass, energy, gravity, or even the soul/spirit etc. is bound in a model parallel to the ten dimension model of space-time? Again I don't know how you'd empirically prove such a statement if it presides in a similar tenth dimension.

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You don't have to go into the tenth dimension to make extraordinary claims. Have you not heard about the china teapot full of steaming hot morality that is in orbit between the Earth and Mars? It's too small to be seen or detected by any telescope, but it's there!

Thanks to Gadjo_dilo for his explanation of what his religion means to him. I suspect this is quite an accurate understanding for many 'Cristian's' and quite a few people that consider themselves non-religious.

First of all, for the sake of argument, lets put all the fire and brimstone, God and hell stuff behind us for a second. Matey sitting up there with Christ on one side and St Peter on the Pearly Gates is pretty outdated as is believing that every word in the bible is sacrosanct.

What do we have left?

Some good social gatherings and a written list of basic moral principles and lessons passed down through the ages. God didn't give us morality, man did. The bible is a way of handing these down from generation to generation.

And the social gatherings? Yuletyde - Christmas. Pagan or Christian matters not. It is a mid winder festival around the Winter Solstice that brings people together over the bitter months. Eoster or Easter. The pagan giving of eggs celebrating the birth (spring) is a great Christian tradition still followed. All hallows eve is another pagan festival where the children of the poor were given gifts of food from the better off for their family to get through the tough winter. Just happens to be similar to Harvest festival and the giving thanks coincides with All Saints Day.

It doesn't matter is you are Christian, Pagan or a complete agnostic, observing these community traditions helps communities establish identity and maintain health.

Mix these in with God(s) and you have a focal point. Something to work toward. Doesn't have to be real but it's a goal to work toward. If it floats your boat then fine but best to get over all the religion yes/no stuff and enjoy the traditions.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Eki, you have issues mate. Serious issues.

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Just a special sense of humor.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Now seriously: obviously you can't ever become religious as your soul is tight only to the material and physical world and your principles are too material. I'd rather think that for your needs rationality is enough. I understand your soul is thirsty of knowledge but what happens with the feelings? More knowledge will help you to become a better man? And I'm afraid that following your soul desires you might be able to find what happen in the entire Universe or if life exists on Sirius but you'll never know the cause of life, why and for what purpose we exist.

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I prefer to call myself a realist, and I do have principles and feelings first of all, the material part is next to these.
Creating something is not only about objects is also about ideas.

As for the purpose of our existence: depends on each of us. Mine is to work my grey matter.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Something like:
Who are we?
Where do we come from?
Where are we going to?

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Let's call it evolution.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Yes. Thank you. But could you satisfy another of my (sick) curiosity?
Were you raised in greek-catholic or protestant surroundings?

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Nope. Mother catholic, father orthodox, none of them are thorough believers, and none of them ever tried to educate any of their kids to believe in a god. Great parents.
I grew up with Jules Verne's books followed by the Physics, Maths and Chemistry books to become an engineer who firmly believes in knowledge.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

According to romanian explanatory dictionary "soul" has loads of meanings. From the point of view of idealistic philosophy and as a religious concept soul is defined as spiritual substance that give life to humans, has divine origin and eternal essence.

Another sense is that of "kindness, mercy, humaneness" which explains the "soulless" thing.

In romanian we also use the word "spirit" to describe the ideal factor of existance, opposed to matter.

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I guess one day they will finally add other meanings to this word in the Romanian dictionary, we just need to have the free minded generations come of age.

Personally, I'm entirely comfortable with the idea that human existence is finite. We are born, live and die. Before birth we don't exist. After death we cease to exist. I don't believe in an afterlife or an everlasting soul. I don't need the threat of my eternal soul being turned into Mr Crispy to behave properly. Nor do I believe that human emotions such as love, happiness, kindness and compassion are tied to some indefinable, nebulous 'thing'. Good people are good, bad people aren't. A 'soul' has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

Good people are good, bad people aren't. A 'soul' has nothing to do with it.

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But why the good ones may become bad ones and viceversa?
And what authority we have to label us as good or bad?
Are we just good or bad? Aren't there any other "nuances"?

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Originally Posted by ioan

I guess one day they will finally add other meanings to this word in the Romanian dictionary, we just need to have the free minded generations come of age.

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If I translate " free mind " into romanian, I'll get " minte libera ". This syntagm, from the material point of view, could signify a lack of the grey matter. And unfortunately I reckon it already fits most of our young brainwashed generations. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by ioan

I prefer to call myself a realist, and I do have principles and feelings first of all, the material part is next to these.
Creating something is not only about objects is also about ideas.

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Reality is unique but its perception is different. What if your vision isn't correct? What if your senses aren't enough to perceive the real thing?

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Originally Posted by ioan

As for the purpose of our existence: depends on each of us. Mine is to work my grey matter..

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I see. Like Hercule Poirot who exercised his little grey cells.....

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Originally Posted by ioan

Let's call it evolution...

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Evolution...Once again I see it only on a material level. We're probably the best fed and prosperous generation in history and we enjoy a freedom to travel everywhere around the world.
Otherwise we are the most faint-hearted and dependant on comfort and consumption. We're less autonomous in our judgements, more servile and gregarious.
etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I grew up with Jules Verne's books followed by the Physics, Maths and Chemistry books to become an engineer who firmly believes in knowledge.

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I guess now you're already a good engineer but I hope your literary interest didn't stop at Jules Verne. Especially when our national literature may offer you books by Emil Cioran, Mircea Eliade, Ioan Petru Culianu, Petre Tutea, Nicolae Steinhardt.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But why the good ones may become bad ones and viceversa?
And what authority we have to label us as good or bad?
Are we just good or bad? Aren't there any other "nuances"?

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People change for a multitude of reasons. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?
Good and bad are defined by society. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?
Of course there are degrees of both. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Evolution...Once again I see it only on a material level. We're probably the best fed and prosperous generation in history and we enjoy a freedom to travel everywhere around the world.
Otherwise we are the most faint-hearted and dependant on comfort and consumption. We're less autonomous in our judgements, more servile and gregarious.
etc. etc.

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So you don't see any evolution in the fields of scientific knowledge?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

So you don't see any evolution in the fields of scientific knowledge?

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Science evolved, man didn't.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Science evolved, man didn't.

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I find this a very depressing view — and what does it say about religion that man hasn't apparently evolved? I disagree with your viewpoint. Do you not consider, for example, that the way in which practices such as slavery came to become unacceptable demonstrates that man has in some way evolved? And how can you consider that science, a 'man-made' activity, has evolved while man has not? Surely you cannot separate the two. I would argue that the very fact of man being able to push scientific knowledge forward and being able to understand such complex subjects demonstrates evolution. And in the most basic terms, the human species is well known to have evolved.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

People change for a multitude of reasons. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?
Good and bad are defined by society. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?
Of course there are degrees of both. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?

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Let's simply say that in my opinion the soul is reflected in our behaviour and actions.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I find this a very depressing view — and what does it say about religion that man hasn't apparently evolved? I disagree with your viewpoint. Do you not consider, for example, that the way in which practices such as slavery came to become unacceptable demonstrates that man has in some way evolved? And how can you consider that science, a 'man-made' activity, has evolved while man has not? Surely you cannot separate the two. I would argue that the very fact of man being able to push scientific knowledge forward and being able to understand such complex subjects demonstrates evolution. And in the most basic terms, the human species is well known to have evolved.

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You get me wrong. I admit man's life conditions have improved, his life is longer and healthier. But these couldn't make him less selfish, greedy, violent, self-sufficient. Reflection is more and more replaced by barbarian sensibility and instinct of conservation. Maybe slavery was abolished ( ironically, at my work our daily complaint is that we're treated like slaves on plantation ) but I have the feeling that today we are transformed in some organisms convicted to live a mechanical life.
I could continue but I think I've already got another stigma: gadjo is a misanthropist.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

If I translate " free mind " into romanian, I'll get " minte libera ". This syntagm, from the material point of view, could signify a lack of the grey matter. And unfortunately I reckon it already fits most of our young brainwashed generations. :laugh:

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You'll find it hard to believe but these free minded young generations are the future of the country, in any country, not the old brainwashed communists.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Science evolved, man didn't.

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I guess you arrived to this conclusion based on an analysis of yourself.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

You get me wrong. I admit man's life conditions have improved, his life is longer and healthier. But these couldn't make him less selfish, greedy, violent, self-sufficient. Reflection is more and more replaced by barbarian sensibility and instinct of conservation. Maybe slavery was abolished ( ironically, at my work our daily complaint is that we're treated like slaves on plantation ) but I have the feeling that today we are transformed in some organisms convicted to live a mechanical life.
I could continue but I think I've already got another stigma: gadjo is a misanthropist.

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I still see a lot of contradictions here. You criticise the rise of barbarism, yet what we see today are merely different forms of barbarism, not more of it. And what did the early humans have if not conservation instincts? How else would they have survived?

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

You get me wrong. I admit man's life conditions have improved, his life is longer and healthier. But these couldn't make him less selfish, greedy, violent, self-sufficient. Reflection is more and more replaced by barbarian sensibility and instinct of conservation. Maybe slavery was abolished ( ironically, at my work our daily complaint is that we're treated like slaves on plantation ) but I have the feeling that today we are transformed in some organisms convicted to live a mechanical life.
I could continue but I think I've already got another stigma: gadjo is a misanthropist.

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I think that your views are based on the sore reality that is that of the Romanian society of the last 15 - 20 years.
However with time things will change into better and you'll understand our position towards evolution.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I guess you arrived to this conclusion based on an analysis of yourself.

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Just when I was about to forget how "sweet" you may be sometimes.... :laugh:

I'm not offended. On the contrary, looks like I "evolved" to the stage that I take your usual pricks as simple acts of a young hothead.

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Originally Posted by ioan

However with time things will change into better

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Oh wow, it's been a while since I saw an East European this optimistic. ;)

Soul of Guardian
Anime Trumps
Onimusha Soul
Universal Monsters Online
Dragon Born

Totally agree with you. There are many dogs :D .

Nobody has ever proven me that there's one or more gods. So, I'll keep on being an atheist.

Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that atheists outnumbered believers on a poll
(I know small sample but still)
Thats the first time it has happened to me that I am in a group where I am not the blackest of black sheep. (I wouldnt really mind if there was a God/Entity, but only that he would be sensible enough to show himself once and for all so as to abolish the ridiculous concept of religion)

Just an example of how religion is turning people into idiots

Indonesia says 'No' to Gaga | Photo Gallery - Yahoo! News

I am no way a Lady Gaga fan, but I couldn't give a damn about all her concerts, so why are these people so bothered about a concert that they are not forced to attend to?!

Hey, I do not know, but everyday, I pray there is no hell.



Then the old lady says, where do you think you are, if you ain't there already.................I just tell her every since I went blind, I forgot what you looked like...........

Gesundheit!

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Originally Posted by ioan

Just an example of how religion is turning people into idiots

Indonesia says 'No' to Gaga | Photo Gallery - Yahoo! News

I am no way a Lady Gaga fan, but I couldn't give a damn about all her concerts, so why are these people so bothered about a concert that they are not forced to attend to?!

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There is always someone to protest against things they aren't forced to do or attend ( see those topless ukrainian girls ). You see only the religious fanatics - mind you, not every religious person is necessarily so radical .


BTW I'm a Gaga fan ( how else could be a dilo ? :laugh :)

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

There is always someone to protest against things they aren't forced to do or attend ( see those topless ukrainian girls ). You see only the religious fanatics - mind you, not every religious person is necessarily so radical .

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Just question a bit the truth of their religion and most of them will react in a radical way, this thread is proof enough for it.

Ioan,

1. Are you sure you aren't also radical in judging other opinions?

2. Do you think I'm the "habotnic" ( how can we translate this? ) type?

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Ioan,

1. Are you sure you aren't also radical in judging other opinions?

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Who knows? I'm certainly not the most objective in judging myself.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

2. Do you think I'm the "habotnic" ( how can we translate this? ) type?

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Can't say for sure. I think that you're unsure about what exactly you are.

And the Catholic Church might disintegrate due to internal struggles for power one of these days:

Vatican faces widening of leaks scandal - Yahoo! News

Whatever you believe, I do think that you must be tolerant of the other opinions. I say that because I notice a worrying trend - religious people are getting more fanatical, churchmen more judgmental, but atheist too are going on the attack and always bash religion. I hope that this won't end in tears.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Can't say for sure. I think that you're unsure about what exactly you are.

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I'm not what I seem to be
Nu Sunt Ce Par A Fi - Ion Minulescu

(Lovely lyrics)

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Whatever you believe, I do think that you must be tolerant of the other opinions.

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Not always. There is a limit to tolerance. The problem is setting the limit.

To be truly tolerant you have to tolerate the intolerant.

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

Not always. There is a limit to tolerance. The problem is setting the limit.

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Exactly, some attitudes should not be tolerated.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

To be truly tolerant you have to tolerate the intolerant.

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To be truly tolerant is certainly not one of my goals, if that means having to tolerate absolutely everything or anything, just for the sake of being able to call myself truly tolerant.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Just question a bit the truth of their religion and most of them will react in a radical way, this thread is proof enough for it.

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Reading the thread I find quite the opposite. Those without religion seem much less tolerant of any opinion that doesn't fit what their personal view is.