Osama Bin Laden Is Dead

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Originally Posted by chuck34

As I said, the US can do no right by some.




My God I got sucked back into this. I'm out, like I said I was gonna be because you just can't have a reasonable conversation with some people.

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Actually, the US does a lot od good around the world. Sadly, they also poke their nose in places it doesn't belong.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Who is the one who feels everything that is different is bad?

"In February, 1998 Osama Bin Laden issued a statement titled "The World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders". This document states that it is the duty of all Muslims to kill all American citizens and the allies of America. According to the Jihad ideals it is okay to kill others if it is for the God; especially for the spreading of the Muslim faith (not all Muslims agree with the ideas of a Jihad)."

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Yes, in retaliation for the deaths of their people. They didn't start it, the West did with their biased and brutal foreign policies and if you don't like it we go to war with you attitude.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Umm... no it wasn't 555. In fact, just the oposite:

"...I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It’s practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. ..."

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They target Muslim countries and muslims. And it was all triggered by the West. They are worsening their own problem. If the Muslims are their friends, why do they have the blood of innocent men, woman and children on their hands. The actions of the US speak louder than the false words you quoted them on.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Liar-liar pants on fire!

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You are either:

1. 12 years old
2. Have an IQ of 12

Which is it?

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Originally Posted by Eki

According to Bush, it was OK to kill others if it was for "freedom"; especially for the spreading of "democracy" (not all believers in democracy agree with that stance).

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Which as all sane people know is bullsh!t. The "leaders" of the "free world" see fit to torture and kill people in the name of "freedom" and "democracy". That's exactly what the other side is thinking too, that they are also right. So who is right then? The answer is no one.

People on this forum are stating that I am a fan of Osama. On the contrary, I hated the guys guts. People on this forum are stating that I think the US can do no good. Again, on the contrary, I have seen the good they do with my own eyes. Sadly, the people who are making these comments are those who like me, are from the West so they see everything that the West does as right. Have they ever stopped to think that the terrorist sitting in the cave somewhere has the exact same thoughts that we do?

I can see past all the bullsh!t and just because I disagree with the biased views of people on this forum who live in the West, does not mean I support what the likes of Osama and his kind do. Many from the West wear blinkers. What I am saying is there are two sides to this whole story. Both sides are the bad guys here. Getting personal or running from this thread does not change the fact that the world is fu@ked up, and will always be fu@ked up as long as there are more than 2 people on this planet who can argue about something.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Thank you for proving my point....Nowhere did President Bush order the killing of Muslims just for being Muslims.

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:erm: I never said he wanted to kill Muslims just for being Muslims :s tareup:

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Originally Posted by cali

There's always a reason for every consequence and USA/Israel has given more than enough of a reason. Do you really think that OBL one fine day just woke up with an idea of attacking WTC towers? Just like that this idea came to his mind? If you take away the reason, then there's no consequence to deal with.

Not that I'm justifying OBL or smthin, but clearly you cannot even understand the reasons for all of this and it goes waay back in history. And now we have consequence where all of these idiots are killing each-other and thus affecting our lives as well with their games.

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I know you'd like us all to live in peace and harmony, me too , but that is not possible in the current situation we are in. At the moment there are terrorist groups all over the world trying to blow up/kill people because on their values, their chosen way of life, their religion. What should we do about it? What should the Americans do about it? Nothing? Let them do what they wish? Should we engage bombers in philosophical discussions? Bush Jr was not the brightest kid on the block but American policy has changed after Obama came into power and they are heading into the right direction. I'm really surprised how people (Europeans of different nations) who have so much in common with Americans can despise them so much that every single action by them is condemned no matter what it is and what it is based on. People also forget the fact that Americans have bailed us out two times. Let's face it, without the Americans all Europeans from Finland to France would be speaking Russian.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

At the moment there are terrorist groups all over the world trying to blow up/kill people because on their values, their chosen way of life, their religion.

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So you think it's OK that the Americans and some other countries have chosen the way of life of helping Israel to kill and oppress Palestinians, to occupy Iraq and kill people there, etc.?

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Let's face it, without the Americans all Europeans from Finland to France would be speaking Russian.

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Don't make me laugh. The Americans helped the Soviet Union to fight Finland in WW2. It's thanks to the Finns and maybe the Germans, not the Americans, that we don't speak Russian.

I think Obama has done the correct thing in not releasing pictures of Bin Laden with half his face blown off. Conspiracy theorists would just say that they are faked anyway.
If he was still alive he would have sent a message by now to keep up Al Qaeda morale and make the US luck dumb.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Don't make me laugh. The Americans helped the Soviet Union to fight Finland in WW2. It's thanks to the Finns and maybe the Germans, not the Americans, that we don't speak Russian.

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You're speaking English! :p

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

You're speaking English! :p

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True.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

People also forget the fact that Americans have bailed us out two times. Let's face it, without the Americans all Europeans from Finland to France would be speaking Russian.

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More likely we would be speaking german..... :devil:

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

If he was still alive he would have sent a message by now to keep up Al Qaeda morale and make the US luck dumb.

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Talking about possibilities I wonder how US would look if he died a few years ago and it's reported he was killed now.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Good thing club Gitmo was kept open.

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Claims that the torture of detainees was directly responsible for the intelligence that tracked down Osama bin Laden are fanciful at best and cynically manipulative at worst.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...sama-bin-laden

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Limbaugh just said deathers like you would pop-out of the wood work.

The Obama actually fulfilled a campaign probmise-- SHIZAM!

I guess his decision to not coddle the trash in Club Gitmo paid off- good for Obama and good for Bush, that chapter is closed.

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I made my comment with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek and even had a cheeky smiley on the end. Looks like that was wasted.

Gitmo eh?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54301.html
Sen. John McCain denounced “advanced interrogation” methods like waterboarding Wednesday amid a growing debate over its effectiveness reopened by the killing of Osama bin Laden.
“So far I know of no information that was obtained, that would have been useful, by ‘advanced interrogation.’ In fact, according to published reports … some of the key people who knew about this courrier denied it,”
“I stand on the side of the United States and by the Geneva conventions, of which we are signatories, which we were in violation of by waterboarding.”

You think that Gitmo paid off? How? If no useful information was obtained, then what purpose did it serve?

Then again you have stated previously that you don't think that there actually is such a thing as human rights, much less a right to dignity, so therefore I guess you're prepared to excuse what went on at Guantanamo.

Here's a little story of how things work , as told to me by Abby Hoffman after speaking with Jimmy Carter :
Carter said that from behind his back , an emmisary went to speak with the Ayatola about keeping the hostages in Iran until the election was over , to oust Jimmy as a lame duck .
His name was John Tower .
Ammunition was traded for the hostages the moment Reagan signed the paper to become President .
Ron was a hero .

And the man appointed to investigate a newly confused title for the scandal , called now "Iran/Contra affair" , was a guy named John , in "The Tower Commision" .
It was a "Here , John , go cover your tracks ." situation .


What this should tell you is that the US government is not at all controlled by the president , although you're supposed to think it is .

By the way , Abby was dead within six months , supposedly having committed suicide .
He looked pretty happy when I saw him .
A lot of people wanted to hear what he had to say .

And , you've probably never heard the story .


Too bad Twitter wasn't invented yet at the time .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

What this should tell you is that the US government is not at all controlled by the president , although you're supposed to think it is .

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I don't think many people would be under the illusion that any government is controlled by its named head, owing to the influence wielded by such as the civil service, other members of government and so on.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I think Obama has done the correct thing in not releasing pictures of Bin Laden with half his face blown off. Conspiracy theorists would just say that they are faked anyway.
If he was still alive he would have sent a message by now to keep up Al Qaeda morale and make the US luck dumb.

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On the grounds of common decency, I for one have no desire to see any such images. They would be revolting.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Don't dodge things by calling me vile and loathsome, you don't see me claiming I "served my country" by invading and indiscriminately murdering women and children by the hundreds. You claimed you "were there".

My career? You know nothing of "my career". Besides, obvious dodge is obvious, where is the proof you're even American, and that you ever were in the service of my country.?
And why should I apologize when you have insulted me and soiled my Country"s reputation by your claimed terrorist acts?

Even if you apologized to the people of Panama for invading their country just for a cheap ass salary you got---if you ever did---and apologized to the families of those killed and wounded and whose homes were destroyed because you were "just following orders", why should I apologize to you? Because I've shown what you claim you did to be a terrorist action, and illegal under American law?

Ha!

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I stand by my statement.
I would suggest you come to grips with it and govern your actions accordingly.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

They target Muslim countries and muslims. ...

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That is very naïve 555.

Religion is not a factor.

US policy is to suppress volatility in parts of the world that threaten both their safety, and more importantly, economic stability. The instability in Iraq was more of a threat to the latter, although the White House administration made is seem more like the former.

Schmenke , yours is also rather a naive comment .

A whole lot of money is made on war . It's the only factor .

The rest is what we're supposed to believe .

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Originally Posted by schmenke

That is very naïve 555.

Religion is not a factor.

US policy is to suppress volatility in parts of the world that threaten both their safety, and more importantly, economic stability. The instability in Iraq was more of a threat to the latter, although the White House administration made is seem more like the former.

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You should know by now that I am anything but naive ;)

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Originally Posted by schmenke

US policy is to suppress volatility in parts of the world that threaten both their safety, and more importantly, economic stability. The instability in Iraq was more of a threat to the latter, although the White House administration made is seem more like the former.

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I would have to say that their policies causes more volatility than stability.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I would have to say that their policies causes more volatility than stability.

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That's the idea .

Time for some news.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/uspakist...505-1eae6.html

Speaking of volatile...

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

...A whole lot of money is made on war . It's the only factor .
....

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Yep, agree 100%.
But it’s also an investment. Wars are expensive. It costs a lot of money to ensure the economic stability for which a country is fighting.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

More likely we would be speaking german..... :devil:

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You obviously haven't read your history books. Germany would have lost the war to Russia in any case.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Don't make me laugh. The Americans helped the Soviet Union to fight Finland in WW2. It's thanks to the Finns and maybe the Germans, not the Americans, that we don't speak Russian.

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I'm talking about the whole Europe. If Americans hadn't landed in Normandy (their resources made it possible) Russians would have conquered the whole Germany and very likely other countries occupied by Germans.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I'm talking about the whole Europe. If Americans hadn't landed in Normandy (their resources made it possible) Russians would have conquered the whole Germany and very likely other countries occupied by Germans.

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Instead the Soviets used the opportunity that the Normandy invasion gave them and tried to conquer Finland:

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=215

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On 9 Jun 1944, the Soviet Stavka ordered a general offensive against Finland to begin, a date chosen in coordination with the Western Allies' invasion of France at Normandy. Russian Colonel General Dmitrii N. Gusev pushed 15 divisions, including veteran Guard units, against the Finns and quickly pushed the front back to the Vammelsuu-Taipale Line by the next day.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Instead the Soviets used the opportunity that the Normandy invasion gave them and tried to conquer Finland:

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=215

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My point is that while Americans are an easy target for criticism, they've contributed a lot (a lot of lives) to help us build a free, democratic Europe and that's why I find the constant bashing of them odd, because in many ways they are like us, so it's like criticising ourselves.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

My point is that while Americans are an easy target for criticism, they've contributed a lot (a lot of lives) to help us build a free, democratic Europe and that's why I find the constant bashing of them odd, because in many ways they are like us, so it's like criticising ourselves.

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In many ways also Russians are like us. The Muslims aren't that different either. Also there are many kinds of Americans, many kinds of Russians, many kinds Muslims and many kinds of us.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

That is very naïve 555.

Religion is not a factor.

US policy is to suppress volatility in parts of the world that threaten both their safety, and more importantly, economic stability.

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Hmmm,under the Taliban regime heroin production was 0%,Us invades Afghanistan ousts the Taliban.Aftermath,heroin production;120% of the worlds demand.
Mission accomplished,replace the radicals with a bunch of Pablo Escobars.

Talk about being NAIVE

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

My point is that while Americans are an easy target for criticism, they've contributed a lot (a lot of lives) to help us build a free, democratic Europe and that's why I find the constant bashing of them odd, because in many ways they are like us, so it's like criticising ourselves.

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I very much agree with your sentiments. There is so much specifically to admire about America and Americans. However, I hope we would feel able to be critical of any nation whose policies we object to, gratitude towards them for past actions notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

However, I hope we would feel able to be critical of any nation whose policies we object to, gratitude towards them for past actions notwithstanding.

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I agree.

We are lucky that we have the freedom to criticise our friends and allies, and that is a point many here don't understand. These freedoms come at a price, normally paid in people. By all means discuss and criticise, but understand how we have retained the ability to do so.

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Originally Posted by JackSparrow

Hmmm,under the Taliban regime heroin production was 0%,Us invades Afghanistan ousts the Taliban.Aftermath,heroin production;120% of the worlds demand.
Mission accomplished,replace the radicals with a bunch of Pablo Escobars.

Talk about being NAIVE

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Why am I naïve?

What does Taliban opium production have to do with the invasion of Iraq, or more to the point, the post that you quoted?

Besides, the US did not invade Afganistan, a coalition of several nations did.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Why am I naïve?
.

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Because the US doesn't give 2 sh*** about other countries freedoms,prosperities etc.They need wars to fuel their huge military monster and make money while at it. Can you imagine the military machine collecting dust?
How many people throughout the world see the US soldiers as "liberators"?

If the government is concerned for "safety" they need to stay out of other people's business. But why do so when you can brainwash people with wild theories of WMD's, Axis of Evil and other BS.

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Originally Posted by JackSparrow

Because the US doesn't give 2 sh*** about other countries freedoms,prosperities etc.They need wars to fuel their huge military monster and make money while at it. Can you imagine the military machine collecting dust?
How many people throughout the world see the US soldiers as "liberators"?

If the government is concerned for "safety" they need to stay out of other people's business. But why do so when you can brainwash people with wild theories of WMD's, Axis of Evil and other BS.

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So what's any of that got to do with my post that you quoted?
Why didn't you just post your opinion without resorting to calling me naive?

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

You obviously haven't read your history books. Germany would have lost the war to Russia in any case.

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Hmm.... I admit I have poor knowledge but on the other hand in history books we can find the events and facts that had happened. What could have happened are only suppositions. Alliances between countries can come overnight due to the national interest and can change what we think it's granted..
Anyway I don't think that ever in history an european country could conquer the whole continent, not to mention that it's not a rule that a conquered country is forced to adopt the language of the conquerer. Russian language wasn't compulsory even in the communist block.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Besides, the US did not invade Afganistan, a coalition of several nations did.

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And guns don't kill, people do.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Hmm.... I admit I have poor knowledge but on the other hand in history books we can find the events and facts that had happened. What could have happened are only suppositions. Alliances between countries can come overnight due to the national interest and can change what we think it's granted..
Anyway I don't think that ever in history an european country could conquer the whole continent, not to mention that it's not a rule that a conquered country is forced to adopt the language of the conquerer. Russian language wasn't compulsory even in the communist block.

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Yes it was, Estonians,for example had to study Russian. This is bit offtopic and I'm not interested in continuing this discussion with somebody who really doesn't know what he is talking about. No offense, honestly.

Back to the topic, now that Palin woman is demanding that the pictures of Osama should be made public. I bet she couldn't even pinpoint Pakistan on the map.