Kimi's future - No racing in 2010?

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22nd September 2009, 20:16
Firstgear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copse

Don't you think F1 contracts will usually contain clauses saying that if the driver doesn't get to drive in F1, it will get terminated early....

I did think of that, but I was just wondering about other's opinions, or the likelyhood of it happening, or if something similar had ever happened in F1 in the past.
22nd September 2009, 20:46
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firstgear

A question here. :)

If (make that a big IF) all the speculation is true, and Ferrari have signed Alonso to run alongside Massa for next year......is there anything that is stopping Ferrari from just sitting Kimi for the year instead of letting him go to Mac or elsewhere. If they're paying him regardless, why let him drive for the competition?

Unlikely.
The contract will surely contain a clause that says he has to drive in F1 if under contract with the team.
22nd September 2009, 21:31
jens

Not much to add to the conversation here, but I don't know, why some people keep highlighting that WDC-factor so much to 'prove' something. WDC is a nice thing and every driver's ultimate goal, but some make it sound like "he has a WDC, so he is better than that guy, who hasn't got it", is kinda unfair especially considering, how close the last few seasons have been and the final result could have very-very easily been completely different.
23rd September 2009, 01:09
Boudica

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firstgear

A question here. :)

If (make that a big IF) all the speculation is true, and Ferrari have signed Alonso to run alongside Massa for next year......is there anything that is stopping Ferrari from just sitting Kimi for the year instead of letting him go to Mac or elsewhere. If they're paying him regardless, why let him drive for the competition?

There is clauses against this. A driver must be in a racing seat, a drivers value is often determined by his last races, so if driver doesn't drive for a year it would do damage to their value, and their driving is ultimately their commodity, that is why the drivers, and especially the top drivers have clauses against this. The job description of a test driver and a race driver are also entirely different.
23rd September 2009, 01:34
Saint Devote

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Not much to add to the conversation here, but I don't know, why some people keep highlighting that WDC-factor so much to 'prove' something. WDC is a nice thing and every driver's ultimate goal, but some make it sound like "he has a WDC, so he is better than that guy, who hasn't got it", is kinda unfair especially considering, how close the last few seasons have been and the final result could have very-very easily been completely different.

In principle I agree with you. But usually there has to be significant reasons why a driver that has not won the WDC be considered equal.

Wining the WDC is like wearing the rings from winning the Indy 500 or winning the World series. It is a mark of achievement.

The difference between a driver that does not reach beyong Q1 compared to his teammate being the first five cars for example at the end of Q3 may be relatively small timewise but the Q3 driver is viewed as the better driver.

Massa did not clinch the deal, Kimi did. And reviewing Raikkonen's achievements in f1, it is self-evident that he is the better driver.

If Ferrari gets rid of Kimi and retain Massa then they will look quite ridiculous - but of Alonso is hired then it will also look like the hand of Alonso is at work. Alonso does NOT like teammates that are competitive with him at all! :vader:
23rd September 2009, 08:05
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Devote

In principle I agree with you. But usually there has to be significant reasons why a driver that has not won the WDC be considered equal.

Wining the WDC is like wearing the rings from winning the Indy 500 or winning the World series. It is a mark of achievement.

The difference between a driver that does not reach beyong Q1 compared to his teammate being the first five cars for example at the end of Q3 may be relatively small timewise but the Q3 driver is viewed as the better driver.

Massa did not clinch the deal, Kimi did. And reviewing Raikkonen's achievements in f1, it is self-evident that he is the better driver.

If Ferrari gets rid of Kimi and retain Massa then they will look quite ridiculous - but of Alonso is hired then it will also look like the hand of Alonso is at work. Alonso does NOT like teammates that are competitive with him at all! :vader:

I know people here like point to 2008 season and based on that they suggest that Kimi is not as good as 1. he was or 2. as was hyped. I'm trying to look objectively at 2008 :) and there was a dip in Kimi's performances compared to Massa around mid-season, that's a fact. But people who dislike Kimi leave it at that and don't seem to want to consider that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't all his fault. Based on Kimi's performances now it is possible that last year there were car issues that people (also those who don't like him) should take into account before judging him, since it's clear that he is as good as ever. There you go, I didn't sound too much like a Kimi-fan boy, did I?
23rd September 2009, 08:28
F1boat

Kimi might not be as good as hyped, as they hyped him as better than MS, but he is bloody good!
23rd September 2009, 08:59
jas123f1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firstgear

A question here. :)

If (make that a big IF) all the speculation is true, and Ferrari have signed Alonso to run alongside Massa for next year......is there anything that is stopping Ferrari from just sitting Kimi for the year instead of letting him go to Mac or elsewhere. If they're paying him regardless, why let him drive for the competition?

Probably not – however the contract is said to be ”watertight” - especially because Kimi is making a very good job. The reason to that the 2009 result doesn’t looks better really is not depending on drivers (Kimi or Massa) and every one knows that - I think - it’s depending on the car - not on the drivers. And above that, the team has made couple of mistakes – enough to loos the title if the car would be better. So if (a big IF - because I think its not necessary to accuse any but..) IF anybody is responsible to that it must be Stefano it shelf..

Also McLaren made same mistakes, both teams made couple of wrong decisions when developing their 2009 years car.

That easy it is, the reason to that they in spite of that have a win is solely because of good drivers (like Lewis and Kimi) and the team making a excellent work under the weekend.

I can’t see McLaren speaking that they will pull out Lewis, because of the teams result for the year is not that good – and the situation is quite similar in both teams now when Kimi is in the first driver position again.

:)
23rd September 2009, 11:40
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Not much to add to the conversation here, but I don't know, why some people keep highlighting that WDC-factor so much to 'prove' something. WDC is a nice thing and every driver's ultimate goal, but some make it sound like "he has a WDC, so he is better than that guy, who hasn't got it", is kinda unfair especially considering, how close the last few seasons have been and the final result could have very-very easily been completely different.

I agree and disagree with you. Just because a driver has won a WDC doesnt mean he is better than one that hasnt. However, winning a WDC shows that that driver was at least consistant enough over a season to beat the others, regardless of how good their car was.
23rd September 2009, 22:50
truefan72

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

The media hyped him to be better than MS, but us the fans who have been watching F1 during the length of his F1 career knew just how good he was. I wouldn't say he is better or worse, I just know he is a totally different type of driver. People do like to bash him because of last season as if all the seasons previously have simply melted away. It was obvious he was struggling with the car last season compared with Massa but its pretty fickle to assume its because he is a worse driver, isn't it? He's won one world championship, been runner up in two, and finished in the top three on four ocassions. Even in 2008 he finished third and this is what is generating all the fuss. I say give him chance... :)

very well said
24th September 2009, 00:20
Saint Devote

Quote:

Originally Posted by DexDexter

I know people here like point to 2008 season and based on that they suggest that Kimi is not as good as 1. he was or 2. as was hyped. I'm trying to look objectively at 2008 :) and there was a dip in Kimi's performances compared to Massa around mid-season, that's a fact. But people who dislike Kimi leave it at that and don't seem to want to consider that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't all his fault. Based on Kimi's performances now it is possible that last year there were car issues that people (also those who don't like him) should take into account before judging him, since it's clear that he is as good as ever. There you go, I didn't sound too much like a Kimi-fan boy, did I?

There are many people that do not like Kimi because he has ironclad self-esteem. This is a quality I admire a great deal. He is not weak pyschologically as is Massa - the Brazilian needs constant babying by his engineer.

There is a whole body of achievement by Raikkonen while at Mclaren that demonstrates how good he is. The way he won in 2007 was difficult.

And since Massa left he is the highest scoring driver with Barrichello some way behind. The Ferrari team have provided Kimi with proper attention and this is the result.

Too much is made of 2008. Kimi had significant issues and some mechanical problems during races as well and he did make a few errors in qualifying mainly. He finished 3rd in the championship - not the worst result!

BUt remember Spa in 2008, he passed both Massa and Hamilton. Then of course Massa was given first place by the stewards.

So yes you are right and objective on 2008. Also, in the latter part of 2008 Hamilton began to drive in order to protect his lead - he disclosed this recently when questioned about HIS championship win. So it also flattered Massa.

Kimi IS as good as ever. I like who he is, the way he has always driven is the same - he never had to "learn" f1 as a driver like Massa has had to. This was one of the remarkable things that we saw when he drove Sauber and Peter Sauber saw this.

He happily reminds me a lot of late SuperSwede and I find that so pleasureable - he will tell the engineers what he wants and the goes out and does his best in such a sublime way.

With Massa, there is always a big performance and a discussion and anguish and he has to be encouraged......

Kimi is far and away the better driver than Massa and he WON a world title for Ferrari.

If they do not appreciate him then maybe its time to move to Brawn with its Mercedes backing or back to Mclaren.

Kimi, unlike Alonso or Schumacher is not afraid of having any driver as hsi teammate.

But Ferrari will discover that Alonso demands total focuse and Massa wil discover what it is like to have a top driver as his teammate who considers him a threat just by being there. Psychologically Fernando Alonso is going to crush Felipe Massa if they wind up together.

Up until now, delicate little Felipe has been living in an idyllic teammmate world.
24th September 2009, 07:38
jas123f1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Devote

There are many people that do not like Kimi because he has ironclad self-esteem. This is a quality I admire a great deal. He is not weak pyschologically as is Massa - the Brazilian needs constant babying by his engineer.

There is a whole body of achievement by Raikkonen while at Mclaren that demonstrates how good he is. The way he won in 2007 was difficult.

And since Massa left he is the highest scoring driver with Barrichello some way behind. The Ferrari team have provided Kimi with proper attention and this is the result.

Too much is made of 2008. Kimi had significant issues and some mechanical problems during races as well and he did make a few errors in qualifying mainly. He finished 3rd in the championship - not the worst result!

BUt remember Spa in 2008, he passed both Massa and Hamilton. Then of course Massa was given first place by the stewards.

So yes you are right and objective on 2008. Also, in the latter part of 2008 Hamilton began to drive in order to protect his lead - he disclosed this recently when questioned about HIS championship win. So it also flattered Massa.

Kimi IS as good as ever. I like who he is, the way he has always driven is the same - he never had to "learn" f1 as a driver like Massa has had to. This was one of the remarkable things that we saw when he drove Sauber and Peter Sauber saw this.

He happily reminds me a lot of late SuperSwede and I find that so pleasureable - he will tell the engineers what he wants and the goes out and does his best in such a sublime way.

With Massa, there is always a big performance and a discussion and anguish and he has to be encouraged......

Kimi is far and away the better driver than Massa and he WON a world title for Ferrari.

If they do not appreciate him then maybe its time to move to Brawn with its Mercedes backing or back to Mclaren.

Kimi, unlike Alonso or Schumacher is not afraid of having any driver as hsi teammate.

But Ferrari will discover that Alonso demands total focuse and Massa wil discover what it is like to have a top driver as his teammate who considers him a threat just by being there. Psychologically Fernando Alonso is going to crush Felipe Massa if they wind up together.

Up until now, delicate little Felipe has been living in an idyllic teammmate world.

Agreed – and I would say also that Kimi has one more quality, he is an honest man and that is what F1 need today more than ever.

I really hope Kimi gets a car so he can take the title 2010 and I hope he goes back to McLaren if Ferrari doesn’t want keep him.

:)
24th September 2009, 09:37
DexDexter

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78805

Ferrari still "pondering" over driver choice. Should be pay him zillions of dollars for not driving? :)
24th September 2009, 10:09
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Devote

And since Massa left he is the highest scoring driver with Barrichello some way behind.

That's exactly what is strange about someone you claim has such a strong self confidence.
24th September 2009, 10:09
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

If I was Kimi i'd just make the decision for them and say I'll go elsewhere. Its obvious they think he's abit of a thorn in the side, so I would be knocking on Mclarens door... :)

Yep and the door will be opened. Sadly a very nice man is going to be left unemployed after that :(
24th September 2009, 10:12
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by DexDexter

Yep and the door will be opened. Sadly a very nice man is going to be left unemployed after that :(

Who's gonna be unemployed? Heiki? Don't worry for him, I'm sure he'll find a seat with 4 new teams coming next season.
24th September 2009, 10:13
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Who's gonna be unemployed? Heiki? Don't worry for him, I'm sure he'll find a seat with 4 new teams coming next season.

Let's hope so. Honestly, he is an intelligent, down-to-earth type of guy.
24th September 2009, 10:35
truefan72

Quote:

Originally Posted by DexDexter

Let's hope so. Honestly, he is an intelligent, down-to-earth type of guy.

yeah, a decent chap,...but I don't want him at mclaren.
24th September 2009, 10:40
truefan72

about kimi,.

I am waiting and hoping that Mclaren sign this guy. I think Hamilton would welcome a strong teammate. Its good for the team as a whole and both drivers will be doing their thing.

As for Ferrari, I simply don't understand their decision making.
Except for the fact that Alonso might have stipulated kimi's departure as a requirement for him coming there.
24th September 2009, 10:50
I am evil Homer

Quote:

Originally Posted by DexDexter

Let's hope so. Honestly, he is an intelligent, down-to-earth type of guy.

Shame that doesn't score you points. I also really like Heikki but let's be honest he's in the lower ranks of current F1 drivers. I think he'll get a seat at a new team and hopefully build from there but these last two seasons haven't been great for him no matter how much I cheer him on!
24th September 2009, 10:51
I am evil Homer

Quote:

Originally Posted by truefan72

about kimi,.

I am waiting and hoping that Mclaren sign this guy. I think Hamilton would welcome a strong teammate. Its good for the team as a whole and both drivers will be doing their thing.

As for Ferrari, I simply don't understand their decision making.
Except for the fact that Alonso might have stipulated kimi's departure as a requirement for him coming there.

There's only 2 cars at Ferrari and Massa is in one of them when he returns - and I doubt Alonso is in any position to stipulate who his team mate is regardless.
24th September 2009, 11:01
jas123f1

Quote:

Originally Posted by truefan72

As for Ferrari, I simply don't understand their decision making.
Except for the fact that Alonso might have stipulated kimi's departure as a requirement for him coming there.

The Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo is saying that Felipe deserves an other chance and then we understand that the big money tells the rest.
24th September 2009, 15:04
truefan72

Quote:

Originally Posted by jas123f1

The Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo is saying that Felipe deserves an other chance and then we understand that the big money tells the rest.

yeah that comment sounded ridiculous to me. Why would massa deserve another chance and kimi not?
and why would you keep a guy who won;t be racing for half a year, and has won nothing, has a less stable perosnality to be matched with Alonso than a team with 2 WDC's and a driver who is bringing out the best in this 2009 car which will essentially be the same as the 2010 car. By the time we get to the end of 2009 kimi will have successfully dialed up that car to top contender status, and then you show him the door and give him the golden parachute.

put it this way, Kimi is pretty much sought after by every team out there. If massa were to be let go, I doubt that mclaren would offer him the seat, and he wouldn't have that many suitors.
24th September 2009, 17:36
donKey jote

Quote:

Originally Posted by truefan72

As for Ferrari, I simply don't understand their decision making.
Except for the fact that Alonso might have stipulated kimi's departure as a requirement for him coming there.

:laugh:
:dozey:
24th September 2009, 18:02
jas123f1

Quote:

Originally Posted by truefan72

yeah that comment sounded ridiculous to me. Why would massa deserve another chance and kimi not?
and why would you keep a guy who won;t be racing for half a year, and has won nothing, has a less stable perosnality to be matched with Alonso than a team with 2 WDC's and a driver who is bringing out the best in this 2009 car which will essentially be the same as the 2010 car. By the time we get to the end of 2009 kimi will have successfully dialed up that car to top contender status, and then you show him the door and give him the golden parachute.

put it this way, Kimi is pretty much sought after by every team out there. If massa were to be let go, I doubt that mclaren would offer him the seat, and he wouldn't have that many suitors.

That comment sounded ridiculous to me too - did you think i'm the Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo who is saying that Felipe deserves an other chance but not Kimi.

:)
24th September 2009, 18:15
snellman

kimi in a fast reliable mclaren will drive ferraris pants off
24th September 2009, 19:24
jas123f1

Quote:

Originally Posted by snellman

kimi in a fast reliable mclaren will drive ferraris pants off

Sure he is - if he has a car to do it :)
24th September 2009, 20:14
HenryM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Devote

There are many people that do not like Kimi because he has ironclad self-esteem. This is a quality I admire a great deal. He is not weak pyschologically as is Massa - the Brazilian needs constant babying by his engineer.

I don't know, but massa looked psychologically strong reacting after his 2 dnf's in the 2 first races last year, after his engine issue in Hungary, after the team mistake in Singapore, and after losing the title in the last corner, also I think it's positive that he can always learn and improve working with the right people like his engineer

Quote:

And since Massa left he is the highest scoring driver with Barrichello some way behind. The Ferrari team have provided Kimi with proper attention and this is the result.

so ferrari was not giving proper attention to kimi since 2007?... also you can see in many different ways the better performance of Kimi since hungary

Quote:

BUt remember Spa in 2008, he passed both Massa and Hamilton. Then of course Massa was given first place by the stewards.

so the real result was Massa 2nd and Kimi 18th.

Quote:

Kimi is far and away the better driver than Massa and he WON a world title for Ferrari.

the results since 2007 show that they have similar performance.
24th September 2009, 22:03
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by donKey jote

:laugh:
:dozey:

Well spotted! :D
24th September 2009, 23:01
keysersoze

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Well spotted! :D

"the fact that" is the most abused expression around. Whenever I see it, I immediately check to see if there was an actual fact in the vicinity. :D
25th September 2009, 01:09
truefan72

Quote:

Originally Posted by keysersoze

"the fact that" is the most abused expression around. Whenever I see it, I immediately check to see if there was an actual fact in the vicinity. :D

man you guys are abusing semantics, "except for the fact that" is an expression and does not imply the presence or lack of an actual fact, and that is then followed with might have but of course English may not be either of you guys' native tongue and thus don't understand the intricacies of the language.

lol the jokes on you guys for your naivete. Talk about making a meal out of breadcrumbs.
25th September 2009, 01:35
Saint Devote

Quote:

Originally Posted by jas123f1

Agreed – and I would say also that Kimi has one more quality, he is an honest man and that is what F1 need today more than ever.

I really hope Kimi gets a car so he can take the title 2010 and I hope he goes back to McLaren if Ferrari doesn’t want keep him.

:)

Indeed he is honest and never makes excuses.

He is also a champion that really does deserve another title. During his time at Mclaren he lost at least 5 grands prix and definitely 1 title dur to technical problems and the frustration drove him to Ferrari.

I remember Hakkinen before he left Mclaren saying that Kimi was taking a big chance because with Mclaren a driver like Kimi could be assured that he would ultimately win a title. :D
25th September 2009, 01:40
Saint Devote

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Who's gonna be unemployed? Heiki? Don't worry for him, I'm sure he'll find a seat with 4 new teams coming next season.

I agree with you.

I remember Heiki from his days before f1 as I am sure most do here and he would be a tremendous asset.

Many or most drivers do not adapt well initially to f1, it takes them time and being with Alonso and Hamilton is probably the most difficult.

Alonso is not a willing teammate while Hamilton is a driver like Kimi in that to him, f1 is natural from the start.
25th September 2009, 01:44
Saint Devote

Quote:

Originally Posted by snellman

kimi in a fast reliable mclaren will drive ferraris pants off

In a quick Mclaren with Hamilton and Raikkonen - they will push each other to limits and it could be a very exciting battle once again between Mclaren teammates.

Prost and Senna without the rancour! Well at least a very lot less!!

As an alternative I would love to see Jenson and Kimi at Brawn together. It would be as good!
25th September 2009, 01:51
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by truefan72

man you guys are abusing semantics, "except for the fact that" is an expression and does not imply the presence or lack of an actual fact, and that is then followed with might have but of course English may not be either of you guys' native tongue and thus don't understand the intricacies of the language.

lol the jokes on you guys for your naivete. Talk about making a meal out of breadcrumbs.

Trying to save face? Too late. :laugh:
25th September 2009, 06:16
donKey jote

Quote:

Originally Posted by truefan72

man you guys are abusing semantics, "except for the fact that" is an expression and does not imply the presence or lack of an actual fact, and that is then followed with might have but of course English may not be either of you guys' native tongue and thus don't understand the intricacies of the language.

lol the jokes on you guys for your naivete. Talk about making a meal out of breadcrumbs.

apart from the fact that English is my native tongue....
:laugh:
:dozey:
25th September 2009, 10:06
truefan72

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Trying to save face? Too late. :laugh:

save face from what? your ignorance or apathy
25th September 2009, 10:13
truefan72

Quote:

Originally Posted by donKey jote

apart from the fact that English is my native tongue....
:laugh:
:dozey:

well then its a pretty sad day for the english language when you pull a word from an entire statement out of context and make up nonsense out of it.

but oh well, 99.9% of the others here clearly understood what I said, and you simply can't comprehend it. And then ioan jumps in with is usual all-unknowing power and you both make a perfect comedy duo, rife with smiley faces and what not. So I'll leave you 2 to your bizarro thoughts and move on.
25th September 2009, 10:13
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by truefan72

save face from what? your ignorance or apathy

Your poor knowledge of facts and English!
25th September 2009, 10:14
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by truefan72

well then its a pretty sad day for the english language when you pull a word from an entire statement out of context and make up nonsense out of it.

but oh well, 99.9% of the others here clearly understood what I said, and you simply can't comprehend it. And then ioan jumps in with is usual all-unknowing power and you both make a perfect comedy duo, rife with smiley faces and what not. So I'll leave you 2 to your bizarro thoughts and move on.

Man you made a mistake, it was pointed out by others that's all. Be a man and take it on the chin instead of hiding behind an overinflated ego.

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