Irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
It is right that Hamilton is punished, he broke the rules, but to lose the win over this? Idiotic decision.
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Irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
It is right that Hamilton is punished, he broke the rules, but to lose the win over this? Idiotic decision.
irrelevant ? well he got punished for taking advantage..this pic tells me he was in front of Kimi goin into the chicane and was behind him coming out of it..He actualy lost instead of gained advantage in all this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
:s hock: I cant believe that 8 people on the poll believe the decision is acceptable :s hock:
This is childish logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
At the middle of the chicane, he had the option - whether to brake and stay a little bit behind Kimi and go through the chicane properly (kimi had taken the room from him), or just cut the chicane and lose less time. He chose the latter one, but it gave him an unfair advantage. Onboard camera showed how easily he could have done the first thing, but he chose the latter to lose less time.
That said, it is a comedy to take the win from him over this.
why should it be Lewis giving in and not Kimi...again..Lewis (as the pic shows) was in front of Kimi goin into the chicane..why did kimi not backed off and let Lewis by ? on the defensive line Kimi was he never could make the corner in a proper way anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Kimi had the racing line. Obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Kimi tried to take Lewis out? Huh? If there was contact it was very minor. As they say "rubbin' is racin'" but crashing into people on purpose recklessly and causing damage is dangerous and should be penalised. Kimi wasn't reckless....Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
You just don't get it. Lewis may have been slightly in front but this is a moot point considering he had to go off road. It's like the pass he got penalised for earlier this year. He passed the car and then went off the road. You can't simply pass a car and then fail to take a corner.
I do wonder if Lewis' bad record this year has something to do with the zero tolerance that the stewards have shown in this case. I do think that having the penalty applied after the race was the right thing to do in this case because Lewis and McLaren have the right to appeal and if the ruling is overturned then Lewis will have his race win back. If the drive through was done during the race there would be no way for them to get back the time Lewis would have lost.
This is racing. These guys aren't driving on the road where it's nice to be courteous, this is a racing track and good manners and being courteous doesn't apply. Lewis has quite rightly done the same thing to other drivers and he would have done the same thing if he'd had the opportunity to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
if you check the follow up of them pics one can clearly see Lewis could make the corner but got pushed off the track by Kimi...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Don't jump to conclusions so easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am evil Homer
Did you read the sporting code, I didn't cause I did not find it.
However the penalty is not arbitrary, it's the exact penalty that is prescribed in the sporting regulation, paragraph 16.3.
As for criticizing the stewards, I have no data to contradict them.
Still I don't like the way it was done. A 10 place grid penalty would have been a cleaner cut, if indeed he is guilty.
well ya you say it right...This is racing...this is a racing accident like they happen in every race..in whatever category/series.....and as long as the driver who cut the corner let the other driver go by again..never was made a problem of it..Until yesterday !Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Kimi had the racing line. Kimi didn't need to let Lewis in......Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
What a stupid decision!!!!
You have no proof whatsoever that Kimi didn't slow down, or that Lewis didn't slow down even more in the process thus making Kimi pass him.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwboogityfan
There is no proof to your allegations.
Good points. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by V12
The thing is in addition to position there's also this thing called "time".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
On a proper track without these silly tarmac runoff areas Lewis would have broken his car or lost a lot of time. Perhaps the track is somewhat to blame but it seems that the stewards took issue with the fact that Lewis failed to make the corner and simply thought that giving the position back was sufficient when a driver who leaves the track due to his own actions should be penalised in regards to time and not just position. If Lewis had simply braked rather than doing what he did he would have had Kimi later anyway.....
This may have already been said but...Given that the penalty imposed was a drive-thu penalty McLaren's appeal may be rejected before it is heard.
Hamilton was given a 25s time penalty because there was no time to serve a drive-thru. Normally, having served a drive-thru, a driver has no opportunity to appeal because the penalty is immediate and final.
Bollocks! The chicane is to their right and so Kimi is closer to it and thus in front of Hamilton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Look at a picture taken .5 seconds later and you will see who was in front in that chicane.
Picking a picture at the only moment that advantages your POV is not enough to proof whatsoever f you ignore the rest of the process.
I just feel pretty depressed about all this.
There is a certain innevitability about it all. There is a obvious agenda at work and we all know it.
If anyone disputes this, before replying, can you provide a list of all incidents at Spa and tell me what the outcome by the stewards was?
We all know this is BS. I feel equally sorry for the Ferrari fans that are embarrassed by this as they have been equally let down. It must be horrible to know that you will win an undeserved championship in this manner.
It now looks like the FIA will refuse to hear the appeal and I have just re-read the sporting regulations concerning penalties and they have no justification for not hearing it.
However, if they do hear the appeal, they will have to reverse it or face international condemnation again. How much longer can this happen?
Hamilton could have made the corner but Kimi would have crashed into the side of him in the process. He had the inside line but Kimi was in no mood to compromise so Lewis avoided the accident.
Lewis came out ahead and lifted off so he was going SLOWER than Kimi who passed him.
Seeing as they were nose to gearbox before the corner, alongside in the corner and back to nose to gearbox after Lewis had lifted, I don't see what advantage he gained.
Can anyone tell me.
Perhaps he should have given him a 5 second head start? However, he would still have been penalised because it wasn't 10 seconds, or 20 or whatever Massa needed to get past.
For the people voting this was justified, please tell me what advantage Lewis gained?
ok..each his own opinion...But I am interested to hear your thoughts about this situation...at the next corner...Kimi also is clearly of track....on the green...and hits Lewis in the back...and as I mentioned earlier..to me with the intention to take Lewis out...Why the Stewards not made a point of that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/8...milewissk9.jpg
I had the same reaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
I believe that they think that the penalty is correct, which may be the right stance.
But still the way it is being dealt is the wrong one IMO.
This is just about to become another Groundhog Thread isn't it? ;) :rolleyes:
Do you try, a very little tiny bit at least, to be objective? I doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Because its not against the regulations?...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
so what Bourdais did at the start was also ok to you ? don't think he got a punishment either or ?Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
trying my very best Ioan...But the ones defending Kimi in this should be to..I mean..one the one hand Lewis should have hit the breakes and when one asks why Kimi not did so..it suddenly is racing and no prisoners are taken..I mean ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Because there's nothing wrong with it. Cars are allowed to touch and as long as there is no clear malice or recklessness in the move then it's allowed. If you start talking about no contact between cars then you will totally kill racing off. Kimi was clearly hoping Lewis would drift out wide leaving a gap for him to come through. It didn't happen and Kimi backed out of it and possibly had a slight touch on the back of Lewis' car. Nothing to complain about there. I've yet to see any footage which shows the cars actually touching there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
That was reckless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Contact will be penalised if its reckless or malicious, and Raikkonen v Hamilton was neither. Therefore, no penalty.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...enComment=true
McLaren may discover their appeal will be inadmissable
Quote:
Hamilton certainly obeyed the letter of the law, but in his haste to attack did he not allow, as one observer put it in a heated paddock afterwards, “adrenalin to triumph over the rulebook?” The British ace allowed Raikkonen to pass him but almost instantaneously went back on the offensive in his McLaren Mercedes and it was debatable whether or not Raikkonen had fully recovered his position and his advantage before Hamilton made his next move.
The rules do not go into detail about how an advantage can be deemed to have been recovered or reestablished and the stewards are thus left to interpret what they see on the television footage, combined with the representations of the drivers and the teams. It is is perhaps this subjective element that leaves an uneasy feeling and it is not hard to sympathise with Hamilton and McLaren, who believed that they had not breached the racing code.
But, equally, anyone who saw the skirmish and the replays will have felt an instinctive moment of alarm at the way Hamilton drove, albeit in the heat of the moment. They might recognise, too, that the stewards had a difficult decision to make,
haha ok Daniel..let me see...Lewis clearly hoped Kimi would leave him space..But he didn't..so instead of hitting the breaks hard..eventualy causing a dangerous situation..he choose for the safest option..cutting the corner..letting Kimi pass again after that..Nothing to complain about here either or ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
If there was a penalty every time there was contact there would be no overtaking for fear of contact.This sort of thing always happens at the first turn....Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Could be! I also think that there isn't nearly enough pointless reference to Adelaide 1994 in the thread...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo
My view on the incident? Kimi did nothing wrong. Lewis did nothing wrong. It was great racing and brilliant to see drivers really having a go, whether at passing or defending, and doing so aggressively. The stewards have made a big mistake in applying a penalty.
British Touring Car racing is hardly known as a bastion of fair rules and high driving standards, but F1 could take a leaf out of its book in this instance. I can think of two recent incidents in the BTCC where someone has passed another driver 'illegally' but unavoidably, once under yellow flags and once by cutting a chicane. In both instances, the person who made the move backed off and let the other guy past again, and that was the end of the matter. It should be like that in F1. The penalties applied for cutting the Hockenheim chicanes were another case in point. It was very easy for drivers to be forced to cut across the chicanes.
Sadly youy are arguing the wrong point. Lewis was the one attacking and Kimi was in front so had the right to the racing line. LH realised that they couldn't both make the corner without touching so he had to either brake or cut the chicane. THe real question is if the time that he gave back to Kimi still meant that he had an advantage. It's fairly obvious that Lewis would probably have been about a car length back if they had come out of the corner properly so you could say that he did gain advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
The issue that I have with the decision is that it seems particularly harsh for a tiny gain in time. We;'ve often seen drivers skip across corners and gain a few tenths but not be penalised. Also if McLaren did in fact consult Charlie Whiting then it seems even more ridiculous.
In essence thought the FIA have just applied the law to the very letter, something that they rarely seem to do which is what makes it controversial.
Lewis clearly knew Kimi wouldn't give him the room. i'll be honest I've no problem with Lewis cutting the corner. It was the only sane thing to do. But he didn't give the position back cleanly and made a net gain out of it all. No driver should gain out of going off the trackQuote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
ok imagine..last race..Lewis leads by 1 point in the championship.....he pushes of Massa in the first corner..that's ok 2 for you ? as to you...those things always seems to happen in the first corner ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
As long as he doesn't do it on purpose the objective person would say yes it's OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Why should someone fighting for the title have less rights than a backmarker?
Clearly if it was reckless or malicious it would be penalised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Disagree with you there. At that point Kimi and Lewis were still wheel to wheel and had Lewis slowed down contact would've been inevitable - LH's RF/KR's RR - because Kimi quite rightly would not give Lewis an inch, just as he did to Massa earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpqlEg19NK0
IMHO you're comparing apples and oranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Based on onboard footage (shame the CCTV evidence wasn't made public?) Magny Cours Lewis took too much speed into the Nurburgring chicane whereas at Spa he was fighting for position in which Kimi gave nothing away, in the same way Lewis 'pushed' Piquet and Massa off the track at Hockenheim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joX_A...eature=related
The problem with being pushed wide at a chicane is that you have little choice but to cut the second part of the corner.
Blame that on the GPDA. Call them pussies or down to sporting ethics but they don't like it when smooth asphalt is ruined by gravel and assorted crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by V12
I think it was Kubica at last year's Malaysian GP where he had an off and proceed to clear out his sidepods on the racing line!
I remember Jason Plato did exactly the same thing a few years ago at Copse/Silverstone throughout the qualifying session and got away with it that time. I think BTCC have clamped down on it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by V12
Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
and who's goin to decide if it was or not ?
To me Bourdais action was reckless...and could have turned out way worse if Trulli hitted Massa's car in the incident !
would probably have been you say ? is that enough evidence for you to punish somone in this matter ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo