Israel refuses peace negotiations

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Originally Posted by Eki

I don't think that's a good analogy. When Finland got independent, it was populated by people who were born there and not by immigrants. Israel is largely populated by first, second or third generation immigrants from Europe and America. I believe if they hadn't immigrated there in the first place, there would be a lot less trouble.

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It's not just that though. It's the fact that they had displaced people who were happily living there before.

Judging by what you say eki and daniel, israel does not have the right to defend what they believe is their territory. Where would the jews go then?

Besides the historic implications of Israels rights to territory in the region is very diminished in the discussion. You simply can not say that isarel has no rights. Hence you can not either say that thay have not got the right to defend themselfes.

But of course, as I have said befire, Israel has no right what so ever to take more land than they are entitled to according to the agreement of 1948, and they also have no right to attack cilivilians or otherwise terrorise palestinians.

Neither have the palestines!

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Yeah, like the people on the 747 over Lockerbie, or the peoples on the train in madrid, or the people on Kuta beach on Bali, or the people on the subway in tokyo (sarin), or the people in the Oklahaoma building.
Terroists do not care for who they kill, the cause justifies anything.

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Exactly, but first they need a cause.

- Lockerbie was because of US meddling in the Middle East
- Madrid was because Spain joined the US in the invasion and occupation of Iraq
- I don't know about Bali, but I think it might have been against citizens of countries who joined the Iraq war or by some independece movement that exist in Indonesia
- Tokyo was because of some weird cult
- Oklahoma was because of some nutcase

I can't see any cause why muslims or palestinians would make a terror attack against Finland.

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Originally Posted by Rani

I haven't heard of any "Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism". It's true houses of mass murderers (suicide bombers- I hope you agree with me that blowing yourself up in the middle of a shopping mall is murder and not military action) were destroyed.

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Do you think that it's right to take it on their family members and neighbours? Isn't it a bit like the Nazis did when fighting resistance? If they couldn't get the real culprits, they took their family members or just random villagers and killed or tortured them for revenge.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

When the US invaded Iraq, I was among them who critisiced the action taken, along with thousands of other people in Sweden and throughout the world. All the ususal arguments where brought up: capitalisme, Bush being intellectually challenged, Bush being a murderer, oil and so on.

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I was 1 too, and i still have not seen any reason to change my mind, still no WMD found, going to war based on farytails and lies still is wrong, and if doing like this practically what ever country can be the target.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

It's not racism. It's an observation.

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Generalizing people as being brutal and ruthless on an ethnic basis is racist in my book.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Judging by what you say eki and daniel, israel does not have the right to defend what they believe is their territory. Where would the jews go then?

Besides the historic implications of Israels rights to territory in the region is very diminished in the discussion. You simply can not say that isarel has no rights. Hence you can not either say that thay have not got the right to defend themselfes.

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I agree. Israel has a historic right to this land, as the ancient Israelites lived in this area on and off for a few thousand years. I think there's a famous book about it, it'd be nice to look that one up.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Judging by what you say eki and daniel, israel does not have the right to defend what they believe is their territory. Where would the jews go then?

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If you ask me the, immigrant ones could go where they came from. There would be more room for the native ones, jews and others, to try to live in peace with each other. Maybe if the country after that would be called Palestine, like I think it was called pre-1948, instead of Israel could also help. People tend to be petty over names, like the Greeks don't let the Former Republic of Yugoslavia Macedonia call themselves just Macedonia, because they think the "real" Macedonia is in Greece.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Generalizing people as being brutal and ruthless on an ethnic basis is racist in my book.

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Good for you! I hope it makes you sleep better at night.

Magnus. I never said Israel doesn't have the right to defend themselves. But a lot of the time they do react in an overly agressive and inciteful manner. Then Hamas, Fatah or Hezbollah attack Israel again and then Israel strike back with unreasonable strength and then more Islamic people get radicalised and then the cycle repeats itself.

I agree that Israel has a right to the land. But I also think that Palestinians have a right to their land and to electricity and economic prosperity. If Israel doesn't realise this their dream of a peaceful homeland will never be realised.

Israel is just like a child at school. It's always someone elses fault and sometimes they might be right but no one ever achieved anything by purely blaming the opposition.

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Originally Posted by Eki

If you ask me the, immigrant ones could go where they came from.

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Where would you send the 6 million who parished from "where they came from"?
Where would you send the eight refugees your country sent to die in November 1942?

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“The surrender of eight Jewish refugees to the Nazis in 1942 is a stain on Finland ’s history. The wrongdoing cannot be undone nor can it be justified under any circumstances. Neither does the number of the extradited refugees give any grounds for writing off the issue. Every man has but one life and all lives are equally valuable.”
- Paavo Lipponen, Finnish Prime Minister, 2000

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Do you know that houses of jews who were deported to the ghettos and camps in ww2 now belong to regular people who didn't pay a buck for them?
I know this because I visited Poland and saw houses of many of my classmates' granparents now containing ordinary Poles. All this means that even if they were to return to their own houses they wouldn't be able to live in them. I have another question for you, please answer sincerely:
Could you imagine yourself as a jew going back and living in a country that betrayed you and sent you to die in the hands of the Nazis?

I say again, Jews have a right to live in Israel. History has proven that eventually they are prosecuted on basis of their religion or race anywhere else. That's just the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Where would you send the 6 million who parished from "where they came from"?
Where would you send the eight refugees your country sent to die in November 1942?

Do you know that houses of jews who were deported to the ghettos and camps in ww2 now belong to regular people who didn't pay a buck for them?
I know this because I visited Poland and saw houses of many of my classmates' granparents now containing ordinary Poles. All this means that even if they were to return to their own houses they wouldn't be able to live in them. I have another question for you, please answer sincerely:
Could you imagine yourself as a jew going back and living in a country that betrayed you and sent you to die in the hands of the Nazis?

I say again, Jews have a right to live in Israel. History has proven that eventually they are prosecuted on basis of their religion or race anywhere else. That's just the way it is.

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Why not launch airstrikes against the poles. That seems to line up with your current policy.