S2000 & Group N, The future of rallying?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I feel that restricting the amounts of money that teams/manufacturers can spend on any form of motorsport is pointless and unenforceable. There will always be 'haves and have-nots'. However, it is surely within the power of the FIA, via the technical regulations and their enforcement, to retain a more level playing field than has previously been the case?

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How do yo limit costs more?

The cars arguably only consume maybe 10-20% of the budget, tops. The rest of the costs come from running events and the tangibles, like hospitality staff, testing, weather crews, and so on.

If you restrict testing, more affluent teams will build private test tracks and facilities and spend money building different roads and surfaces to mimic rallies at their bases.

If you restrict tires, teams will spend more money on tire testing and weather and stage conditions staff to perfect their tire choice.

If you restrict the mechanics teams will just put more time and effort (and money) in to designing their cars to be easier to work on.


At some point the rules have to accept that money will be spent, you can't stop it.

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Originally Posted by L5->R5/CR

How do yo limit costs more?

The cars arguably only consume maybe 10-20% of the budget, tops. The rest of the costs come from running events and the tangibles, like hospitality staff, testing, weather crews, and so on.

If you restrict testing, more affluent teams will build private test tracks and facilities and spend money building different roads and surfaces to mimic rallies at their bases.

If you restrict tires, teams will spend more money on tire testing and weather and stage conditions staff to perfect their tire choice.

If you restrict the mechanics teams will just put more time and effort (and money) in to designing their cars to be easier to work on.


At some point the rules have to accept that money will be spent, you can't stop it.

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I personally don't think it's a matter of spending money. I think it's a matter of worth spending money. A manufacturer joining now, like Suzuki, has a serious lead to catch from the two top contendors, Ford and Citroen. Their budget is way up there, not to mention their development of the car and the team. I can understand why WRC doesn't sound very appealing to new factory.

What I meant with the clean table was that I hope it'll encourages new manufacturers to join in as they supposely don't feel the gap too big. And, more importantly, should they have success, they'll stick to rallying and surprise surprise, are willing to spend more money. Now there's absolutely no point.

Fiat chose another strategy and they're heading to much criticized IRC with two car team with promising young driver(s) ;) . They are at least getting publicity their money's worth.

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Originally Posted by c4

but ironically the formula levelled out by the early to mid 90s due to being based on mass production cars and technology being simpler.

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To me being this the key point of the S2000 formula, which hopefully will level the field again and provide with something like we had in the mentioned early 90's.

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

I personally don't think it's a matter of spending money. I think it's a matter of worth spending money.

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We agree here

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

A manufacturer joining now, like Suzuki, has a serious lead to catch from the two top contendors, Ford and Citroen. Their budget is way up there, not to mention their development of the car and the team. I can understand why WRC doesn't sound very appealing to new factory.

What I meant with the clean table was that I hope it'll encourages new manufacturers to join in as they supposely don't feel the gap too big. And, more importantly, should they have success, they'll stick to rallying and surprise surprise, are willing to spend more money. Now there's absolutely no point.

Fiat chose another strategy and they're heading to much criticized IRC with two car team with promising young driver(s) ;) . They are at least getting publicity their money's worth.

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I understand your argument (I don't disagree with it either for whatever that is worth).

I would simply offer this thought.

Would it be doing right by the teams that are heavily committed to rallying to have the rules makers go, new teams want in but you guys have too much of an advantage with your cars so we are going to radically change the technical rules so the new team has a chance as everybody starts from scratch.

Being competitive in a world championship isn't supposed to be easy or cheap, is it fair to make it easier for new teams to be competitive at the expense of the existing teams investment?

Here is some news about Skoda..Michael Jernberg's rallycross car like a S200;) but news is swedish..

http://www.skoda.se/page_3376.shtml
http://www.jernberg-motorsport.se/

Dilek: Rallycross cars are completely different to rally cars. It is only marketing. The car would be probably his old Fabia with new bodyshell (the image is repainted official image of Geneve Blue car).

:) Yes.I know this Mirek Fric[cze]..Only I don't understand the news..And want to share..

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Originally Posted by L5->R5/CR

I would simply offer this thought.

Would it be doing right by the teams that are heavily committed to rallying to have the rules makers go, new teams want in but you guys have too much of an advantage with your cars so we are going to radically change the technical rules so the new team has a chance as everybody starts from scratch.

Being competitive in a world championship isn't supposed to be easy or cheap, is it fair to make it easier for new teams to be competitive at the expense of the existing teams investment?

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Exactly. That is the conflict here. :up: It sounds really unfair and unsportsman-like to the ones like Ford and Citroen now.

But the public wants entertaiment, just like in Colosseum. So, are we ready to throw them to the lions just because we want better and more exciting rallying ???

Damn right we are.

On serious note, the only, even remotely fair way to "clean the table", is to give clear change of rules with long term schedule. I personally don't think there are any good and equal ways to do this. FIA just has to pick the one which is least damaging.

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Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze

]Dilek: Rallycross cars are completely different to rally cars. It is only marketing. The car would be probably his old Fabia with new bodyshell (the image is repainted official image of Geneve Blue car).

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Michael Jernberg always drove Ford. This car will be completely new. For the rest I agree. "Based on the S2000 car", does anything more than a drawing excist for the Skoda Fabia S2000????

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

Shows the worth of competing ( or in Toyota's case not competing) in F1 and finish nearer last than winning in WRC.

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but how long will they carry on? Toyota aren't in F1 for the love of the sport, they're in it because their marketing department thinks the investment is worthwhile to help sell Corollas- If they carry on being uncompetitive, how long before some guy in an office in Japan looks at the figures and asks exactly why they're spending enough money to fight a small war to give the world the impression that they're not quite as good as Renault, BMW or whoever is curently beating them at the time?

Right now, the marketing value of F1 is worth the cost- as soon as it stops being- and it will- then there will be manufacturers looking to find somewhere they can spend less money and still get the marketing result they want. If WRC can bring down costs, and make itself more promotable, then it may benefit in the long term. You only need to look at the history of touring cars and sportscar racing over the last 20 years to see how these things turn around- in the late 80's there were half-a-dozen manufacturers in sportscars, and 9 or 10 in the BTCC in the mid-90's- or the manufacturers who've come and gone from the WRC for that matter.

If S2000 brings the depth of competition back, then I'm all for it