Schumacher vs Senna

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Originally Posted by ioan

I also fail to see why some claim that Benetton wouldn't have got Renault engines for the 95 season if Senna was still alive. It's not like if he was owning the Renault factory.

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Well, I think Senna was held in VERY high esteem by engine manufacturers. I recall a documentary or similar once about senna in '93, when McLaren ran the Ford engine, as a customer. He pushed Ford, against Benettons best efforts (who had the works deal) to get same spec engines, I think he did it too. (he was beating them on occasion with a less powerful engine.....)

I also recall on that program he was adamant that his race engine, on one occasion (in warm up) was making a noise, the Ford guys said nothing wrong, but Ayrton insisted they change it. He got his way, when the engine was opened up, there was a component that was fatigued.

Now, what may have happened in '95 no one knows, but I do think Ayrton would have pushed Renault VERY hard to concentrate on one team.

Also, the '94 Williams was a real truck at the start of the year, but development on it was fast and furious, and it was the class of the field by end of the season.

It is still all if's and buts though. Makes for a great thread nonetheless!

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Well, I think Senna was held in VERY high esteem by engine manufacturers. I recall a documentary or similar once about senna in '93, when McLaren ran the Ford engine, as a customer. He pushed Ford, against Benettons best efforts (who had the works deal) to get same spec engines, I think he did it too. (he was beating them on occasion with a less powerful engine.....)

I also recall on that program he was adamant that his race engine, on one occasion (in warm up) was making a noise, the Ford guys said nothing wrong, but Ayrton insisted they change it. He got his way, when the engine was opened up, there was a component that was fatigued.

Now, what may have happened in '95 no one knows, but I do think Ayrton would have pushed Renault VERY hard to concentrate on one team.

Also, the '94 Williams was a real truck at the start of the year, but development on it was fast and furious, and it was the class of the field by end of the season.

It is still all if's and buts though. Makes for a great thread nonetheless!

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Unless Senna was going to buy himself the engines offered to Benetton to cover Renault's expenses there was no way he could stop them to sell the engines to whomever they wanted to.

As my signature once said - Schumacher = Senna. They were both aggressive, take-no-prisoners, I am going to win EVERY race type of people. They also were both absolutely unafraid of the rain and they both loved a challenge.

The only difference between them (well, the way I see it, but what do I know?) is that Senna was more personable that Schumacher was. This I think, is why the media seemed to write nicer things about AS than MS.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I agree with the assertation that Benetton would not have been given Renault engines, and therefore he'd have taken 1995, 1996 and 1997 because I don't think that Hill or Villeneuve were better than him.

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Actually, the deal for Benetton to run Renault engines in 1995 was concluded pretty early, and related to Cyril De Rouvre, then owner of Ligier (powered by Renault) being imprisoned in France for tax fraud. The team was then bought by Flavio Briatore/TWR group, and he swiftly concluded a deal with Renault for the Benetton engine supply, the supposition being that this would then give both Ligier and Benetton the Renault engines, leaving Williams with the Ford V8's..

Briatore assumed that the French would not abandon their own team, but reckoned without Renault's marketing, they realised that it was a virtual guarantee that Williams or Benetton would win in 1995, and so Ligier were left running customer Mugen-Honda engines (and necessitating a hasty redesign of the chassis!), and Ford ended up at Sauber, having not realised Flavio wasn't bluffing... So I think it's a pretty safe bet that Benetton would and could not have had that engine deal denied to them, especially when you consider Flav's obvious Renault connections from that point on via Mechachrome, and eventually buying the team wholesale!

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Schumacher, certainly in his Ferrari era, was more analytical and served to bond the team in a way which set new standards; but question marks still exist about his outright speed.

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It is this particular point that I think was Schumacher's greatest strength. There has been no one to my mind that could galvanise a team together like Michael could for all those years. Simply remarkable!

And yes...his outright speed will always be a contentious issue with me as well.

Sirius

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Originally Posted by Osella

Actually, the deal for Benetton to run Renault engines in 1995 was concluded pretty early, and related to Cyril De Rouvre, then owner of Ligier (powered by Renault) being imprisoned in France for tax fraud. The team was then bought by Flavio Briatore/TWR group, and he swiftly concluded a deal with Renault for the Benetton engine supply, the supposition being that this would then give both Ligier and Benetton the Renault engines, leaving Williams with the Ford V8's..

Briatore assumed that the French would not abandon their own team, but reckoned without Renault's marketing, they realised that it was a virtual guarantee that Williams or Benetton would win in 1995, and so Ligier were left running customer Mugen-Honda engines (and necessitating a hasty redesign of the chassis!), and Ford ended up at Sauber, having not realised Flavio wasn't bluffing... So I think it's a pretty safe bet that Benetton would and could not have had that engine deal denied to them, especially when you consider Flav's obvious Renault connections from that point on via Mechachrome, and eventually buying the team wholesale!

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Good point, forgotten about that.

1995 would've been an interesting political year though I don't remember ill feeling regarding unequal engine supply from Renault.

Both Senna and Schumi would've demanded up-to-date upgrades which usually go to one driver.

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Originally Posted by Sirius

It is this particular point that I think was Schumacher's greatest strength. There has been no one to my mind that could galvanise a team together like Michael could for all those years. Simply remarkable!
Sirius

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That actually is a very good point. What was Senna's last year with McLaren, '93 right? Didn't he sap every penny out of the team on his $1M a race demands (I recall a story told by Ron, where Ayrton asked why development was slow, Ron had to tell hime that all the cash went on Ayrton's salary!), not showing up until the last minute to make his point. That is not the trait of a 'team player'.

And what about punching a fellow competitor because he dared to unlap himslef? :eek:

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Originally Posted by ioan

I also fail to see why some claim that Benetton wouldn't have got Renault engines for the 95 season if Senna was still alive. It's not like if he was owning the Renault factory.

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The speculation there is that after a successful season of relationship building, & a potential world championship, Senna may have had the sway over Renault. I'm sure he would have at least tried to block the deal. We can't know.

Please don't confuse speculation with facts, & speculative stats with real ones.

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Originally Posted by ioan

And what about punching a fellow competitor because he dared to unlap himslef? :eek:

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If anyone deserved a slap it was Irvine.

No-one except persons present is really sure what went on, there is a tape of the incident apparently, love to hear it.