Mercedes accused of illegal tyre testing by Red Bull & Ferrari

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Depends on what constitutes a breach? Pirelli clearly feel they have fulfilled their re-mit, and so do Mercedes.........

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How can they feel they have fulfilled their re-mit? They sent out one email last year that was almost immediately rebuffed by FOTA. They've renewed the offer for 2013 citing a FIA permit that nobody has seen yet, but only to some teams. Some is not the same as all. And FIA already released a statement saying that the test should have been offered to all teams on the same conditions and they did not get any confirmation from Pirelli that this has been done. Doesn't look like full compliance to me.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

And the FIA have sanctioned a test in a 2013 car, for 1000KM's. So, who's in the wrong now?

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The cryptic communications between the teams and the FIA so often seem to end up causing a mess don't they. If they made all such communications public it would save a lot of grief.

I don't think it's really clear that the FIA did sanction this test. They say they told Pirelli and Mercedes that a tyre test "...could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team..." but that's not quite the same as sanctioning a specific test. Really it's just restating what the regs already say. So it still comes down to the question of whether Mercedes complied with the regulations.

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

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Originally Posted by AndyL

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

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Excellent point. How does one decide, who ran the test? The fact that Mercedes supplied its current racing drivers as opposed to - let's say a test driver like Ferrari did - makes it difficult to me to believe that Mercedes were complete bystanders in this test. Also, who supplies the engineers? And are it the same engineers that work on the cars during the races? IIRC Pirelli has two official test drivers with F1 experience. Why didn't they drive the Mercedes?
The biggest problem imho is still Pirelli's role in this. They were the ones asking FIA to sanction this test and they were the ones told to offer the same to all other teams. The most you could ask of Merc is to ásk before the test if Pirelli had really done that and maybe wonder why all 10 other teams weren't there. So from my outside position it looks like a breach of contract by Pirelli and negligence by Mercedes.

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Originally Posted by AndyL

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

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That's how I see it. Here is the wording

Pirelli and Mercedes-AMG were advised by the FIA that such a development test could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team that would provide the car and driver

Pirelli request and conduct the test, Mercedes supply car and driver.

That's as black and white as it gets, due to the vagueness of the FIA wording!

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Pirelli has two official test drivers with F1 experience. Why didn't they drive the Mercedes?

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Wouldn't that be akin to All Nippon Air insisting Boeing use James May when testing the 787's revised battery setup........

They'd spend months letting him learn all the controls first.....

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Pirelli and Mercedes-AMG were advised by the FIA that such a development test could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team that would provide the car and driver

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Yep, typical FIA euphemisms. Where do the engineers come from. I doubt Pirelli has engineers, who can run a W04. And thats where the whole shebang falls flat on its face. The moment you bring in engineers from the team the test is no longer run by Pirelli alone and more importantly there is no way to keep them from gathering data unrelated to the tire tests.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Wouldn't be akin to All Nippon Air insisting Boeing use James May when testing the 787's revised battery setup........

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James May is the proud holder of a Private Pilot License that allows him to fly single engined piston aircraft. The Pirelli test driver(s) are GP pilots with a FIA superlicense, who have actually taken part in Grand Prix's.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Yep, typical FIA euphemisms. Where do the engineers come from. I doubt Pirelli has engineers, who can run a W04. And thats where the whole shebang falls flat on its face. The moment you bring in engineers from the team the test is no longer run by Pirelli alone and more importantly there is no way to keep them from gathering data unrelated to the tire tests.

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Perhaps JT should suggest Charlie Whiting should, from hence forth, stick a sock in it. But don't put it in writing, cos they'll f**k that up as well! ;)

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

James May is the proud holder of a Private Pilot License that allows him to fly single engined piston aircraft. The Pirelli test driver(s) are GP pilots with a FIA superlicense, who have actually taken part in Grand Prix's.

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Yes, did you spot my sarcasm. The point being that you want someone who knows the cars and can pound round putting max stress on the tyres, not fumbling with unfamiliar controls. Then you need representative driving styles - you can't as Jaime Algesuarie or whoever to 'drive like Lewis' can you? Well, maybe the FIA think so........

From what I understand there are protocols in place where teams provide engineers for tests but certain things are deactivated, to put it simply, to stop the teams recording useful data to use for their own means. Mercedes would have no doubt provided engineers who know how to run the car, but whether they collected data is another matter. Its a bit like when teams are allowed to do promo days using a current car, but software used to collect feedback is disabled. If this is the case for Mercedes in this test, they can't be charged with full blown cheating as such if it can be proven they did not gain any advantage from the test.