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There was that guy who ran in JanPro’s car in Finland...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
JanPro is not M-Sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
So driver line-up is: $uninen, E$apekka, Gu$ Green$mith and possibly Mad$ O$tberg.
Probably one of the major responsibles for Ford still being involved in this sport. Happy retirement to him and fingers crossed for Ford rally future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
No need to use the $ on Suninen and Lappi. Neither one will pay for their drives, that I think is quite certain (assuming they're both driving for M-Sport in 2020).Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
Suninen is a pay driver though. It's the only reason he's been at Msport the last few years .Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Well that we can argue whether he's a "pay driver" by definition or not. Ofcourse the door to M-Sport was originally opened by Jouhki's € and connections, but for the past two seasons he has not been a so-called pay driver. And this I can say I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
both paying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Lappi is 'contributing' towards his 2020 seat. The term 'pay driver' is a grey one these days...
Richard Millener said in an interview that "Evans and Suninen are the only drivers we support financially", regarding the WRC2Pro team being actually pay drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
and Tänak's...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal the 2nd
support isnt necessary meaning that they pay them with some million/sQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
True. It's a ~half-pay gig for Teemu. Needs some funds via sponsorship, but not the full amount as M-Sport subsidise. I believe that's the deal offered to Lappi too, provided he can find the necessary backing to plug the gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Yep. Suninen isn't a pay driver in the sense of Greensmith (paying full costs of a drive), but he brings substantial budget/backing/support to help Msport run him.
That's why I'm a bit pissed with what Msport are seemingly doing. So many good drivers available, who would drive for free or a minimal yearly salary (in WRC terms), yet they are seemingly wanting Lappi to bring some budget - on top of Teemu and Guss who are already helping with funding. No ambition to put out the best possible 3 car team (which could've been done with Mikkelsen, Meeke, Paddon, Lappi, Latvala, Breen etc etc for relatively nothing).
They were prepared to try and get Tanak but since that didnt work out, they're happy to use this situation to see what drivers are the most desperate for a seat and can source backing. I hope for one, they can at least give Paddon a drive in an event or two.
I understand they dont have full Ford backing, but this was a great chance for Msport to sign two new drivers on the cheap and create a really strong team despite that.
Paddon said that he will be loyal to Hyundai NZ and probably not try to ''get back''in Fiesta after two failed attempts with it. He is aiming to be back maybe in a few years, but I think that he doesn't have that much hope anymore. If he would do good in TCR NZ with i30 I think that Hyundai could bring him to WTCR maybe.
It seems to be lost in the discussion that M-Sport is a private company, not a marketing arm of a giant car manufacturer. They're in it to make profit and in that sense it should be praised that they're 1) still in and 2) seemingly running two credible drivers again in 2020.
They are/were better than Citroen with factory backed funding for last three years. Proper commited with no whatsoever money and still kick their asses.
In 2019 MSport ended behind Citroen in manu Standings despite running 3 nominated cars on multiple events while Citroen always ran 2. In previous years Msport did beat Citroen but Citroen also didn't run 3 cars on multiple events in 2018.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Anyway while I agree that it is nice that MSport is in and understand that they are there to run a business the succes of their business depends on them showing similar speed to the other cars. This in turn makes (partly/fully) paying drivers join them and also makes them attractive to other coming drivers.
So imo they do depend on having at least one somewhat proven driver to provide reference to other drivers and help with car setup/development. Suninen is not yet there (as he said himself in Finland). Lappi might help with that, but he isn't really much different than Suninen in terms of WRC experience.
Comparing Lappi and Suninen is total nonsense. Lappi shows tremendous step up right away while Suninen seems to struggle more and more. Right now maybe Lappi did a mistake to come to Citroen, but he is more capable of challenging for title than Suninen will ever be. Just wait.
Lappi and Suninen started driving WRC at almost same time (2 rallies difference) so they are the two most natural ones to compare. This year Suninen ended 9th with 89 points and Lappi 10th with 83. In stage wins it's 7 to 6 for Lappi.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
There are differences for sure, but even last year at Toyota Lappi was going slightly backwards. He had good results in first half of the season but when Toyota upgraded the car and became clearly fastest in the second half of the season Lappi just moved backwards. Sure his move to Citroen was decided just before that and could have an effect. At Citroen he has the most extremely mixed record possible. Great pace in 3 rallies, and no pace + crashes in 10 others.
Suninen has a bit of an opposite trend with mediocre start and slowly improving (specially on tarmac).
Therefore right now I don't see a huge difference between them. "Future potential" is just speculation at this point. One thing they have in common (that imo comes down to experience) is the issues they have in rallies outside Europe. For last two years they are regularly among the last WRCs, minutes behind or crash.
This brings us back to my main point, which is not a Lappi/Suninen comparison: MSport should have one experienced fast driver and they did have one in recent years. (Evans in 2019, Ogier in 2017-2018, Østberg in 2016). Last time they lacked one was in 2015, which was quite bad year and first in a two year decline. As it looks now history might repeat itself.
Suninen was driving the car which won the previous two world titles and Lappi was driving the car which the guy who won those two titles abandoned after one year.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Lappi had a bad year for sure but I feel with the right environment and a good car he has more potential than Suninen who seems ‘solid’ but hasn’t really shown anything special over the last couple of years.
Of course M-Sport wanta to do well, but without one of the Big 3 driver's they arent going to be able to fight for Championships. Plus the competition is mega-tough against the huge budget Asian teams.
Therefore it makes sense to hire young drivers with potential and ambiton and some sponsors rather than older guys who arent going to win anything now. Suninen & Lappi plus GG/Pontus is ideal.
To show or realize potential these drivers need a competitive package and someone for comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Evans wouldn't be able to go to Toyota if he didn't show race winning speed in Corsica but "only" beat his inexperienced teammates. Similarly Tanak went to Toyota both because he won rallies in 2017 and because he was often faster than Ogier.
For a perfect anti-example look at Finland this year. Suninen was slowest factory WRC except Greensmith, but nobody could say whether it was his own fault, car being slow or setup being bad. He himself said he missed someone to help with car setup. Then you had Greensmith who was the slowest WRC but only had Suninen as reference in same car.
If the package is not competitive and there is no driver to compare with the new guys will rather drive WRC2 (where MSport isn't the fastest) or other semi-factory teams or try to get to Toyota/Hyundai etc.
Btw. Rovanpera is a great recent example, instead of going semi-pay route with MSport in 2019, he stayed in WRC2 spot at Skoda and now went directly to Toyota, bypassing MSport business model.
O. Solberg seems to be heading in the same direction as well at the moment (WRC2 with factory support).
To be very precise, right now ideal lineup for MSport from my view would be Lappi, Suninen, and Latvala or Mikkelsen (Paddon would work too, but he doesn't want) with Greensmith doing a few drives on his own money. But it actually looks like both Latvala and Mikkelsen prefer to do a few rallies at Toyota/Hyundai instead of having to bring budget to MSport, which in the end is a loss for both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
This.
Mikkelsen is the only one i would have picked over Lappi. Perhaps less future potential but on the other hand more experienced now. Feel both could give their careers a boost with a change of team/car.
So, team will be announced ONLY in Autosport International.
Surely they will announce before then.. maybe just livery at the Autosport show?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Otherwise when are they planning to go testing?
Surely the Monte entry list will be released well before thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Where did you read this, if you don't mind me asking?
refer to this tweet https://twitter.com/Autosport_Show/s...668847106?s=20Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Pic of Phillip Dixon
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMff7RrX...pg&name=medium
Maybe a Christmas day announcement? They've done it before....
M-Sport:
Wishing all #MSPORTERS a fantastic evening and a very Happy New Year �� Look out for news of our 2020 lineup in the coming days ��
Team Finlandia!
Suninen, Lappi, JML...
Confident of that??Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Minus JML.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper