Team orders at Ferrari

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Originally Posted by henners88

Not for a bunch of low life Mclaren fans surely? :p

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:) True - they do tend to be Ron Dennis-like.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Your point about forum rules is not too dissimilar to the topic of this thread as its a rule which may have been broken in the latter sense. A written rule has been broken by Ferrari and they stand against it in defiance, and maybe our friend has done the same.

I agree with your second point though, and he was harmless in reality, and I did kind of feel sorry for him really. :)

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There is a distinction between what Ferrari do and what the poster is alleged to have done.

Posting on this forum is not a right so if a rule is broken, then it IS the right of the moderators to act.

It IS Ferrari's right to act in their rational self-interest because that is any entities right. They did not impinge in any way upon anyone else's right because that would of course automatically negate their own.

Simply because a rule is a rule does not make it one to obey - if it is a rule that denies a right - in this case the right of Ferrari to act in their own rational self-interest.

Ferrari own the Ferrari team. They pay the bills, they decide whether to compete and what car to construct and what strategy to use. They have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to decide which driver is better for them to win.

If Massa disagrees then he can leave the team - he did not. By his actions, it is clear that while he was not happy to ackowledge he was slower than Alonso, he decided to move over and this demonstrates that he agreed it was the proper action.

The disgrace is that he allowed his team to be attacked falsely and did nothing. Ferrari ought to have fired the Brazilian on Monday morning - he disgraced himself and tarnished the image of Ferrari.

Any rule that denies a right is automatically not legitamate and in fact I would go as far to say that it is ENCUMBENT upon teams to disobey.

Ferrari have been very clever about this because they also realize that an institution like the FIA, with its kangaroo court can xreate problems.

Briatore found that out - and it took many months and bad publicity to overcome the capriciousness of the FIA. And this has nothing to do with with the actons that led to it at all.

they don't have the right to be in F1 though, they have to have their entry ratified and by entering they sign up to the rules in place.

Sure, they have a right to do whatever (legally) they like with their organisation.

if they wish to participate in the sport they have to obey the rules or suffer the consequences, which could include (but won't) exclusion.

talking of impinging on anyone elses rights, what about the right so of thise who legally gambled on the outcome of a sporting event, safe in the knowledge there is a rule against tampering with the result?

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I have to agree that the pit lane incidents were dangerous and warranted some action. But I think the fact that they are written off as human mistake under pressure gave them a break on the fines. As for the Ferrari fine, $100,000 to manipulate a race and give them a possible chance at Alonso winning the WDC is cheap really.

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Just as I disagree with the assertion that Ferrari's so called team orders influenced the race's result, I disagree with the suggestion that they had manipulated the race. How many laps where left in the race when Alonso passed Massa? With Alonso being much more comfortable and faster on their 2nd sets of tires, with I think it was 17 laps to go, worst Ferrari did was maybe dictate how difficult Alonso's pass on Massa was, and only if you subscribe to the theory that "Alonso is faster, do you understand" as a team order.

Call me naive, But I like to think if Massa could equal Alonso's pace prior to the pass he would have been allowed to win, or Massa became quicker then Alonso later on in the final stages of the race, Ferrari would have expected the same from Alonso.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

they don't have the right to be in F1 though, they have to have their entry ratified and by entering they sign up to the rules in place.

Sure, they have a right to do whatever (legally) they like with their organisation.

if they wish to participate in the sport they have to obey the rules or suffer the consequences, which could include (but won't) exclusion.

talking of impinging on anyone elses rights, what about the right so of thise who legally gambled on the outcome of a sporting event, safe in the knowledge there is a rule against tampering with the result?

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True they do not have the right to be in f1 - but we all know that kicking Ferrari out of f1 is not in the rational self-interest of anyone - rather change the rule. Anyway, they did not implement team orders - they asked Massa to let Alonso through becaise the Spaniard was quicker.

It is the FIA that is alleging team orders and fined them based on the assessment of the stewards.

How many times on this thread must it be reminded that Ferrari have not ackowledged anything that the FIA alleges.

Those who gamble lost. It has nothing to do with Ferrari - Ferrari has no arrangement with them. Its called GAMBLING.

BTW - Jense placed 100 to 1 odds on himelf winning the title in 2009 before the start of the season - the bookmakers were NOT happy when he came to claim his winnings :D

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Originally Posted by henners88

Very true, but that simple fact is something some fans find it difficult to get their heads around. I suppose a fitting question would be, "do they think Ferrari is bigger than the sport?".. Of course it is not, and their entry signs a contract to obey the rules of the F1 World Championship, just like every other team on the grid. If that forbids a team gesturing for one teammate to let the other one past because he has "signed a contract to drive for the best interests of the team", then they must obey that directive. If they don't, then thats also up to them, but they must face the consequences as its a path they have chosen. :)

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The FIA knows that they should not push this issue.
Bernie does not want it and anyone imagining that Todt would be for it is not in touch.

Hugging Jense in congratulations - Bernie said to Jenson in Brazil: you do not listen, you do not obey and you do what you want - I wanted this to be settled in Abu Dhabi :D

Does anyone here imagine that Bernie wants the rather homely Massa to be the number one at Ferrari or the brilliant mercurial Spaniard?

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

...you have to be happy that I can accuse you of things...

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Happy? No. Used to it from you? Yes.

As has been said before there is no absolute, definitive, beyond doubt proof that Ferrari gave, or did not give, a team order. However, the relevant fact is that the FIA stewards deemed that they did give a team order and so found them to be in breach of the rules.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I don't think the teams really care about what Bernie thinks when they get down to business.

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Okay ..... :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by henners88

but he's also made comments about a certain Sebastian Vettel being a WDC in a Ferrari, so lets put it down to him winding people up who are gullible enough to take everything he says seriously.

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Well of course Bernie has a great sense of humor - problem is that people pick and choose what they want to attack him with - such as his hitler comments.

But as Vettel's de facto manager he could get his WDC wish sooner than he thinks. Vettel is the quickest driver this season and if he stops getting the bad breaks [Hamilton hitting him or the FIA attacking him during a race] he is probably going to win the WDC.

Bernie is a greedy schmuck