Funny, I always thought the US had a professional army, rather than an army of volunteers. :\ Oh, the biased coverage we get around here... :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
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Funny, I always thought the US had a professional army, rather than an army of volunteers. :\ Oh, the biased coverage we get around here... :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
True, and I'm glad many of them are hesitating to enlist or re-enlist after seen how the US military has been abused by the present administration. I'm also glad the Finnish military is obligatory because 1) it's cheaper 2) it's bigger and 3) the Finnish government wouldn't even dream to send it into action unless Finland was REALLY threatened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Studiose, they are volunteers in that they sign on. No one puts a gun to their head. THey are compensated so yes, they are professional. Don't split hairs, you knew exactly what I meant.
There is no draft and the US military establishment would not back one. Their experience with draftees in Vietnam is one of the reasons that war was such a miserable experience for all involved.
I think, Mark, that the debate is really about the methods of spreading democracy. Well, at least for me it is. What difference does it make that the Iraqis have "a shot at democracy", if they'll actually end up in some horrible radical dictatorship?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
In the end, results matter a hell of a lot more than intentions. If Iraq actually becomes a stable democracy, then the US has done well. If Iraq becomes a lawless anarchy or an even more radical dictatorship, then the US has ****ed up very severely.
Perhaps we should just give it some time before passing judgements?
In any case, I don't see much point in banging on about how noble the Americans are compared to the Europeans. We all live in free democratic countries, and I'm sure we all value what we have, and want others nations to have the same (as it is very much in our own interest). It's a question of methods more than anything else, and I don't see any overwhelming evidence to the American method being more effective.
Can you please tell me where in the world is a professional army comprised of persons forcibly enlisted?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
It's not a question of splitting hairs. It's a question of calling a spade a spade.
studiose, I think you're misunderstanding the word "volunteeer". It doesn't mean unpaid, it means that you chose to do the job, rather than being forced to do it. So the US forces are composed of people who are BOTH professional AND volunteer.
I just want to put in a word for the US military, since they have been discussed here in derogatory terms, which pains me, to be honest. Over the years, I have worked with hundreds of US military aviators, both grizzled old-timers who spent years in the skies over Vietnam, and starry-eyed midshipmen at the US Naval Academy, keen, naive, idealistic kids. Almost to a man, these have been outstanding individuals, the kind of people you would be proud to have as a brother-in-law or as godparent to your children. Some of these men that I knew have died in service of their country, and I can tell you that none of them risked their lives for anything other than the highest motives. You could fairly argue that they have at times been misguided and badly led, but those I worked with were never evil, vengeful or hate-filled, and I think that fair-minded people should remember that, when discussing the sometimes terrible consequences of US military interventions. No one regrets those terrible consequences, when they happen, more than the US service personnel on the ground.
Eki, yes, it is my contention that most of your biases are based on the fact that Finland has never been overseas fighting for anything. That is fine, Finland has that luxury. Finland is also 5.5 million people so a form of universal service is a necessity. That said, unless Putin loses his mind, Finland has as much chance as being threatened in a direct attack as Canada does, that is to say, NOT at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
As for re-enlistment rates falling in the US, that is natural, they may agree with the war and still feel it is someone elses's turn to serve.
Your dodging my point that you would condemn people to live in oppression because you don't want your precious principles violated still stands. The world isn't Finland Eki. No matter how great you think Finnish diplomacy or democracy is, and it is great, it doesn't change the fact most of the world doesn't see things your way, and maybe on occasion shouldn't. Finns, and Canadians live in a world that is protected by the fact that the US would stand up for any western democracy if attacked. The resentment of the fact the US would be the defender of many nations that seem to spit on its face still remains.
I need not state that the US is often the first nation to donate aid and help in times of natural disaster. They had diverted a carrier group to Indonesia to help out with the disaster there when the tsunami struck 2 years ago, and they spent their tax dollars to provide this service. They didn't question the need to help people suffering, yet the Indonesian government told them to take a walk because they didn't want to be seen as weak and needing American aid. Typical....yet America is the bad guy?
occasionally wrong, but their intentions are more trustworthy then most of the nations that take potshots at them...
Before a drafted military can be effective, it should be given a proper motivation to fight and die for. Vietnam wasn't one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I don't know enough about this to pass judgement, but I understand that the American forces in Iraq have developed a reputation for erring on the side of brutality, which is hardly helpful under the circs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannex
On the whole, however - yes, I also believe that the US army is a noble organization comprised of fine people.
That's like saying most of the garbage men do their job because they want the environment to be tidy and not because they are paid to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannex