People Power

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28th November 2011, 10:38
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

No-one here is arguing for equal wages. Of course different roles attract different salaries and that is fair. What's not fair is that, as Rollo pointed out, an average real wage has gone nowhere since 1978 while a CEO is now likely to earn 475 times that of the average worker whereas in 1978 it was only 11 times. How is that justifiable? The roles haven't changed but the salary gap has. Why?

Sad reality check is that life is not fair. I still don't see the problem. Get to the top of the pile if you don't like being at the bottom or quit protesting and enjoy what you do have in life (health, family, friends etc).
28th November 2011, 13:11
chuck34

So I know I sound like a broken record here .....

But why is it that no one wants to discuss "solutions" to the "problem of enequality"? I've asked a couple of times now, in order to move the conversation along, to assume that we all agree there is a problem. I genuinely want to know what your proposals are. Other than Ioan's "tax 'em all", and Ben's vague "middle ground", I haven't heard a thing.

To Ioan I say, how much do you want? Just tell us all what the magic number is so we can know just how much to work.

To Mr Dunnell I say again, please flesh out what this "middle ground is", how is it different than what we have now?

Honeslty I have been away for a few days so I only skimmed the last few pages, maybe I missed something?
28th November 2011, 13:20
chuck34

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAReagles

Post #382

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

... Government power scares me because there is little recourse if you find yourself on the wrong end of that power. The Founders of this nation knew that, all too well. That is why they set up a very limited government with enumerated powers they were not to exceed.

Yes restrain government! That is the lesson to be learned from history.

Quote:

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
- Thomas Jefferson, 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

Ah so you completely misunderstand how our Federal Reserve system works. The Federal Reserve Banks, you know the one's that control our currency as Jefferson was speaking of, were set up by the US Congress. They are not in any way shape or form players in the free market system. They scream and moan any time someone even thinks of auditing them. That is not free market. No way no how.

So yes, I suppose I agree with you on this, let's end the Fed. Put the power "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof," (US Constitution Article 1 Section 8) back in the hands of the Congress where it belongs.
28th November 2011, 13:26
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

So I know I sound like a broken record here .....

But why is it that no one wants to discuss "solutions" to the "problem of enequality"? I've asked a couple of times now, in order to move the conversation along, to assume that we all agree there is a problem. I genuinely want to know what your proposals are. Other than Ioan's "tax 'em all", and Ben's vague "middle ground", I haven't heard a thing.

To Ioan I say, how much do you want? Just tell us all what the magic number is so we can know just how much to work.

To Mr Dunnell I say again, please flesh out what this "middle ground is", how is it different than what we have now?

Honeslty I have been away for a few days so I only skimmed the last few pages, maybe I missed something?

That cannot be answered as it is a pipe dream. There is no better system than the current one, that's why we use it. Unfortunately, those that cannot change their positions don't want to hear this, hence they either protest or moan.
28th November 2011, 13:34
chuck34

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAReagles

I know that communism won’t work, but it’s obvious to me, and you, and even chuck from what I detected from one of his posts, just on the principles of mankind’s innate characteristics; competition.

It’s the ultimate reason why communism won’t work, it is of course the same reason that civilized nations” will never emerge, and it is course why capitalism will crumble in such a form that it will eventually create a socialist society… or worse, economic genocide. Such as what occurred in Ireland during the famine, which Marx duly noted, and stated that at first the English were first dispensing of the Irish by means of Cromwell, whereas during the famine it was by means of cattle (on the land being sold out for commodity purposes).

You are right on this point. I do believe in competition, and that left completely uncheck competition can be a bad thing. I think it was Madison (could be wrong) that said something like "If men were angels there would be no need for government". Make no mistake there is a role for government in our society. I happen to believe that it has overstepped it's bounds over the last 100 years or so that is all.

Oh and about the "civilized nations", and many of the arguments about equality and charity and so forth Madison has another great quote about that. "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government." Or in other words, charity (and equality) are not jobs of the Federal government, they are the jobs of the individual. I believe STONGLY that individuals should help their neighbors by donating to local charities, helping out where they can, etc, (now here's the distinction) BY CHOICE OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL . However what many of you seem to be advocating is the FORCED charity by the point of the government's gun. That is not charity. That is not equality. That is not what is morally right. That, excuse me for being so blunt, is slavery. And that is the natrual progression from your Marx/Engels "utopia", to the nightmare of Lennin/Stalin. Forgive me for wanting to promote the Madisonian ideals of a Constitutianally limitied government.
28th November 2011, 13:40
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

You are right on this point. I do believe in competition, and that left completely uncheck competition can be a bad thing. I think it was Madison (could be wrong) that said something like "If men were angels there would be no need for government". Make no mistake there is a role for government in our society. I happen to believe that it has overstepped it's bounds over the last 100 years or so that is all.

Oh and about the "civilized nations", and many of the arguments about equality and charity and so forth Madison has another great quote about that. "Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government." Or in other words, charity (and equality) are not jobs of the Federal government, they are the jobs of the individual. I believe STONGLY that individuals should help their neighbors by donating to local charities, helping out where they can, etc, (now here's the distinction) BY CHOICE OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL . However what many of you seem to be advocating is the FORCED charity by the point of the government's gun. That is not charity. That is not equality. That is not what is morally right. That, excuse me for being so blunt, is slavery. And that is the natrual progression from your Marx/Engels "utopia", to the nightmare of Lennin/Stalin. Forgive me for wanting to promote the Madisonian ideals of a Constitutianally limitied government.

Great post :up:
28th November 2011, 14:35
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Yes and I am proudly a white African!

And did you protest against apartheid?
28th November 2011, 16:49
ArrowsFA1

IMHO there is too much focus on the individual in some quarters here. Yes, we all have our own rights, responsibiities and abilities but do we really not give a **** about others?

If charity and equality issues are no part of government then should overseas aid end? Should racial, sexual and other inequalities be simply ignored in the name of the "free market"?
28th November 2011, 17:45
chuck34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

IMHO there is too much focus on the individual in some quarters here. Yes, we all have our own rights, responsibiities and abilities but do we really not give a **** about others?

Who said that we souldn't give a **** about others? I have not seen that here. All I've seen is an argument that it isn't the government's responsibility to enforce "equality". And I know that I have advocated for people giving a **** about others, just that it should be done on their own and not through the force of government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

If charity and equality issues are no part of government then should overseas aid end?

I would argue that most overseas aid should end. Not all of it, there are areas where our interests are being served that should be kept on. But now you're getting into a whole 'nother argument. I'm not going to chase you down that rabbit hole here. Start another thread if you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Should racial, sexual and other inequalities be simply ignored in the name of the "free market"?

No, a thousand times no. Why does every argument about free markets devolve to this basic falsehood, that "free markets" are slavery/segregation/discrimination? Those things are the farthest concepts from a free market that there are. The fact that those horrific practices can and do exists in the minds of men, is one of the best reasons for government there is.

But you (and those on "your side" of the argument) seem to want to conflate equal rights/opportunities with equal results. I want, and I believe strongly, that EVERYONE should have equal rights/opportunity. The US has done a fairly good job of that, we're not perfect, but pretty good. What you seem to be advoacting with all this talk of income inequality etc. is equal results. And as I have said many times before. I do not believe in equal results. If you and I have the same opportunities and I capitalize on them and you do not, why should I be penalized?

Oh yeah, and exactly what is your solution to making income more equitable than it currently is? I really am interested in hearing what you have to say.
28th November 2011, 18:08
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

But you (and those on "your side" of the argument) seem to want to conflate equal rights/opportunities with equal results.

No, no, no. You are reading into our views what you wish to read into them. Hardly at all has it been accurate. All I have been saying is that I want to see the gap between richest and poorest narrowing, something which does not, I have to tell you, have to entail making the rich poorer. And even that only concerns those whose sole obsession is money, of whom there appear to be several here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

I want, and I believe strongly, that EVERYONE should have equal rights/opportunity.

So do I. Right-wingers do not have a monopoly on thinking that way, you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck34

If you and I have the same opportunities and I capitalize on them and you do not, why should I be penalized?

You shouldn't, but this is not what is being argued, by most at any rate.

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