Team orders at Ferrari

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

The two car failures - its funny that Jenson has had NONE - must be something to do with Hamilton's driving. Maybe he forgets that championships are won through scoring points.

The only reason Jenson went out of a race prematurely is because of mechanic error at Monte Carlo and thats a circuit which Jenson enjoys and would have scored points.

And as I recall - Jenson won the first part of the championship at the flyaway races - he led the title chase for FIVE races while Hamilton led the championship for only FOUR. Get yer facts straight before crowing!

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Maybe you forget that Jenson is behind Hamilton in points. Though I'm not crowing at all, that's a fact. As you said championships are won through scoring points. :D

As for the mechanical failures Lewis has experienced, he had no more control or contribution to them then Jenson did with his engine failure. As for Monte Carlo, Jenson could have just as easily tossed it into the wall.... speculation that your preferred driver would always improve while another would always falter is nothing more than the postion of the blinders you are wearing.

Am I the only one to thinks its absurd that 2 cars colliding in pit lane, or a tire bouncing past the mechanics with probably enough energy to kill someone warrents a $50,000 fine and yet somehow the stewerds deemed this to be even more then twice as bad, and all based off interpretation of the events!!!

Am I the only one to think the way the rule is worded a little stupid as well. A team on lap one could issue blatant team orders. tell one driver to let the other pass, and only be breaking the rules if neither of those cars have difficulties, for example, if Massa is told outright to let Alonso pass on lap 2, and the Massa's engine dies, the the team order didn't interfere with the races outcome and therefore should incur no penalty.

Also by issuing a penalty, the stewerds are making the very bold statement that Alonso would not have managed to pass Massa on his own, with the amount of laps left, that is a very brave statement. How can someone claim an action infered with the results unless you have determined the outcome already?

And I really don't get the Ferrari criticism... people might think this was the worst attempt at hiding team orders, but they where just using Max Mosleys new guidelines. Or does everybody already forget Max's "Even if this situation was declared to the drivers by radio, this would not be a team order or a manipulation of the drivers' championship, but rather an explanation of a particular situation - (it is) necessary information for the drivers." in regards to the Vettel/Webber incident in Turkey... Considering he was in charge when these stupid rules I think his opinion is worthy of consideration...

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Maybe you forget that Jenson is behind Hamilton in points. Though I'm not crowing at all, that's a fact. As you said championships are won through scoring points. :D

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What I seem to forget is... When did Hamilton and Button start driving for Ferrari, and which one was told to let the other pass...

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

This is an important principle, yes? Otherwise, any accusation without proof is acceptable. Which it is not. I hope you agree that is true?

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Of course. However, in the case we are discussing the FIA stewards ruled there was sufficient proof to determine that Ferrari were in breach of the rule relating to team orders.

You may disagree with their assessment of the evidence, and perhaps their interpretation of the rule, but the fact remains that Ferrari were found to be in breach of the rule.

They will suffer at the WMSC hearing and so will the mighty Alonso.

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Originally Posted by PSfan

Am I the only one to thinks its absurd that 2 cars colliding in pit lane, or a tire bouncing past the mechanics with probably enough energy to kill someone warrents a $50,000 fine and yet somehow the stewerds deemed this to be even more then twice as bad, and all based off interpretation of the events!!!

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I have to agree that the pit lane incidents were dangerous and warranted some action. But I think the fact that they are written off as human mistake under pressure gave them a break on the fines. As for the Ferrari fine, $100,000 to manipulate a race and give them a possible chance at Alonso winning the WDC is cheap really.

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Originally Posted by PSfan

Am I the only one to think the way the rule is worded a little stupid as well. A team on lap one could issue blatant team orders. tell one driver to let the other pass, and only be breaking the rules if neither of those cars have difficulties, for example, if Massa is told outright to let Alonso pass on lap 2, and the Massa's engine dies, the the team order didn't interfere with the races outcome and therefore should incur no penalty.

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I also agree that they ignore certain breaches of the rules. In the above situation in my view if any team issues an order they should apply a penalty, regardless of whether the other car breaks later in the race, etc. There was also no penalty earlier in the year when Alonso passed Felipe on the pit entry with all four tires out of the lines that mark the edge of the track. In my mind that is still a clear violation of the rules, but it was ignored because it was two team members.

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Originally Posted by PSfan

And I really don't get the Ferrari criticism... people might think this was the worst attempt at hiding team orders, but they where just using Max Mosleys new guidelines. Or does everybody already forget Max's "Even if this situation was declared to the drivers by radio, this would not be a team order or a manipulation of the drivers' championship, but rather an explanation of a particular situation - (it is) necessary information for the drivers." in regards to the Vettel/Webber incident in Turkey... Considering he was in charge when these stupid rules I think his opinion is worthy of consideration...

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I agree it's a rule too hard to enforce and should be changed. There have been too many times when it's not quite as obvious but people can see the team is still in some way attempting to manipulate the race. I can't say I agree that we should listen to Max, as he is really stating that there is a rule and he will ignore violations of it. What really should be done IMHO is to change the rule to allow the orders, and change the title of the WDC or get rid of it and simply have a WCC. If there was no WDC (which I think is an improper title if it's really a team effort), then teams would have no reason to issue an order except to aid the WCC effort. In the example of Felipe and Alonso this last race, they could have simply kept their current positions.

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Originally Posted by PSfan

What I seem to forget is... When did Hamilton and Button start driving for Ferrari, and which one was told to let the other pass...

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I'll be the first to admit it was my mistake to get dragged into the thread drift.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Of course. However, in the case we are discussing the FIA stewards ruled there was sufficient proof to determine that Ferrari were in breach of the rule relating to team orders.

You may disagree with their assessment of the evidence, and perhaps their interpretation of the rule, but the fact remains that Ferrari were found to be in breach of the rule.

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Would this fact, the only known fact in this situation, the fact that it is Ferrari who have been found guilty by the stewards on flimsy grounds, certainly grounds which you yourself cannot be proven, without proof, be the reason why you are not aghast at this disgraceful and incorrect decision?

Somehow, I think that if it was another team, one with a silver and red colour scheme, your heart and mind would be outraged.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Would this fact, the only known fact in this situation, the fact that it is Ferrari who have been found guilty by the stewards on flimsy grounds, certainly grounds which you yourself cannot be proven, without proof, be the reason why you are not aghast at this disgraceful and incorrect decision?

Somehow, I think that if it was another team, one with a silver and red colour scheme, your heart and mind would be outraged.

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I can't speak for Arrows, but I don't like team orders regardless of which team issues them. And for the record I feel that the Red Bull, as well as the Mclaren teams used "orders" less obvious in Turkey, and it has happened in other races as well.

I'm not sure why the investigation wouldn't include telemetry from Massas car to determine how much he lifted. Had the team NOT intended him to lift I would have expected radio transmission asking him what the problem was and why he lifted and let another car past him. I would have also expected Ferrari to defend themselves against the fine by using telemetry and other evidence contrary to their finding.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Would this fact, the only known fact in this situation...be the reason why you are not aghast at this disgraceful and incorrect decision?

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No.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

No.

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But can you prove that?

If you accept, as you have done, that there is no definitive proof that Ferrari used team-orders but you remain happy that the stewards decision was correct, then you have to be happy that I can accuse you of things you cannot disprove.