right here Gary, from page 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Sorry you're so upset.
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right here Gary, from page 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Sorry you're so upset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
I am still waiting for something besides a duck and weave. There is NOTHING in that quote to indicate the series is in the black. It only says that there are no subsidies to the teams. How the hell does that equate to turning a profit? I still await your proof.
Gary
Well, here is my opinion.
Once upon a time, there was a poster who used the screen name Zero.
He posted a lot on 7th Gear in its day, posted for a while right here. He even posted for about 2 days on TF before he got his fanny bumped off.
He had no sources. As he told me once, he was just smarter than all the rest of us, and able to figure "all this stuff out by the things he read on the forums."
He was NEVER wrong, no matter how off the wall his predictions. Even when proven wrong, he would tell you why he was right anyway.
At times, he told us he was a journalist. At times, he told us he was an insider. At times, he told us he was "just a fan."
Back then, he was telling us why CART, in spite of the dropping stock prices, was on the verge of greatness. Back then, he was telling us that the IRL would never answer the bell "next year."
He never used spaces after his commas; funny habit for a "journalist," I thought.
Basically, he made a fool of himself, and no one, on EITHER side of the split, could stomach him. That is a pretty rare talent.
He probably did more to bring the two side together, in his way, than anyone at that time I can think of.
My opinion is that Zero has returned. I just wonder why he changed his screen name?
Just an opinion, mind you...
It was late 2003 and a certain OWRS leader (who resembles a Klingon) told me and an associate that Champ Car would be "in the black within 18 months". Then in late 2004 the same man stated that "the series would break even by the end of 2005"; at the end of 2005 this prescient fellow told me that "the company will break even in 2006". Now Sanguin is telling us ChampCar is finally in the back. Whew, this comes as such a relief to me because I can't see how they have managed to do it given the lack of any real income outside of the sanction fees. If this is all true like Sanguin claims, there is hope for two open wheel racing series in North America after all. It also means that the Indy Car Series must be making serious money now by comparison since it has the Indy 500, a TV contract that pays the series rather than the other way around, teams with sponsorship, promoters playing sanction fees and a manufacturer that activiates with advertising beyond the race broadcasts. The IRL also still has a pulse on network and cable TV, as opposed to Champ Car. Please, Sanguin, help us understand those boffo Champ Car ratings from Europe and do take a moment out of your busy bee ChampCar cheerleading schedule to explain why the Indy Car Series also has a larger audience on the web. Also please tell us how all this can be happening given that the IRL is supposedly on death's door.
The subject of this thread is what happens next so I simply can't wait for more fantastic news from Sanguin and his friends who are now running Champ Car like a business. I also hope they never are involved in any business I am involved with given their "success". I have one burning question for Sanguin: If you are just a fan, how do you know the financial details of OWRS and the Champ Car World Series? It really is a fair question given all you claim to know.
Yea Gary, I want more proof too for alot of things on this forum, and I keep asking,but I don't think I'm going to get it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
At least I have good news, most stuff is just to denigrate the series.IMHO
see you 2008!
Who cares about the IRL? They don't have any bearing on CC's business plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
You should listen to yourself. Stop comparing IRL since, as we speak, they are in a better road than CC. What business plan? I don't see IRL getting their schedule getting cancelled event every year. This year, CC had two. If you think, sorry that's understated. Let me rephrase, if you want to believe that CC is in good standing, tell me what is bad standing for you? So if you want to bash IRL, this is not the place for that. We're not interested in your broad anti-IRL and especially your wishful thinking of CC. There's another site for that kind of thinking, I think you already came from that place.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Slow down, my man. You're not impressing anyone here and soon no one would wish and waste time reading your posts. Let alone talking to you. Take it easy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
I'm still waiting. You made the statement that OWRS is making a profit. I am still waiting for you to back up that statement. I could care less what YOU are waiting on. So now you are saying you have no proof is that correct? You are now saying you just made this statement up, is that correct?
You don't have good news. You have illogical pronouncements that make OWRS fans look stupid. We aren't. You are NOT helping the cause.
Gary
That is YOUR opinion.I guess that says it all.Question,this is the CC forum for CC fans ,right? You seem to be a fan of IRL ,they have a forum too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
Yes I am a fan of CC and want them to succeed,or I wouldn't be posting in the CC forum.
how many times do I have to post it-Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Sure, It's my opinion ,just like others with no links. It's my opinion from people I know and from what I've "heard". Happy? I said you don't have to believe it, take it for what it is.I don't have to believe anyone else who doesn't have proof either no matter how posts they have.
As far as damaging anything ,that's YOUR opinion.I think unfound rumors are much more damaging and are being used to denigrate the series.That's MY opinion.
If CC being solvent makes you mad, I can't help you.
I guess you rather believe the others and their agenda, so be it. IMO
Sanguin, you don't strike me as a true fan. Instead, with every post you remind me of the ugliness that destroyed CART from within and the reason why the OWRS era and 2007, in particular, has come out so badly. This is painful given how much I enjoyed CART and had anticipated a rebrith with Champ Car. It seems you have now appeared from nowhere to demand that we all play the fool like you and not recognize the obvious fact that the Champ Car World Series isn't going to turn out well in the end and that the end may now be approaching. There was probably a propaganda enthusiast like you in a certain bunker in Berlin making sure everyone thought correct thougts before the little house painter took the coward's exit. This will be the kind of mini legacy you leave here. Cheering while others are contemplating the loss and consequence of what has just happened. It is not in the least bit attractive and accomplishes the opposite of what you intend.
Racing is ultimately a battle between realists. I think the whole point of this thread has been to realistically discuss what happens next. You have hijacked this conversation and it is too bad the rest of us have indulged you so I suggest we all stop playing your game.
Good luck on Fantasy Island Mr. Sanguin. You are a modern version of poor little Tattoo yelling "da plane... da plane" in the delusional hope that Kevin Kalkhoven and his Gulfstream will swoop down and save you from your self-inflcted humiliation.
As for what I have posted here, many of my "unfounded" rumors have credible sources just like those who told me last year that Denver was a joke, China was a disaster in the making, Phoenix would never happen and the Vegas GP would not be Fueled by Visa but would instead set a new standard for money lost on an American street race.
Indeed, the IRL has no bearing on the OWRS plan because it is clear that those who own ChampCar do not have a plan nor do they choose to deal with reality. They would rather do as you do and try to sell a delusional fantasy wrapped in falsehoods.
The question I have after following this conversation from the begining is what happens next here? Do we all just post in circles around Sangin's illogical arguments or do we stay on the subect?
tbyars, every user forum on any topic (not just racing forums) has at least one Zero. They should take the adult beverage out of their sippy cup and step away from the keyboard before adult supervision takes it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
They are never wrong, attack any opinion not their own, always need the last word, and generally make fools of themselves. Since they hide behind the anonymity of a screen name they seem to think they can act like an expert and no one will know. The Zeros of the world think they are so smart because eventually no one contradicts them anyone and they can sometimes dominate a "discussion".
But every forum, regardless of topic, has people who do know what is going on in that particular arena. Eventually, the people who know just go away or shut up, just as they ignore the noisy child yelling "wolf". That forum becomes stale and useless until the Zero finds another message board somewhere where they can take their "act", spew more useless drivel, and annoy more people.
Without an audience, they have no purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Oh please, oh please don't do that! I'm really enjoying watching this debate from the sidelines. Besides his opinion on the current state of Champ Car, I'm waiting for Sanguin's (aka Zero, Cache, etc.) opinion on the Iraq War, universal health care and U of Michigan's football team. :eek:
Ok, back on topic.
If CCWS is going to go after the European market with a (currently) spec racing series, focusing mainly on street circuits and road races, how does that make CCWS distinct from say GP2 and A1GP? They really need to bring ovals back in order to differentiate themselves from the rest of the major European series, otherwise CCWS's grand scheme will get lost with the rest of the F1 feeder series.
Continuing with the GP2 and A1GP line, how does the European and worldwide tv packages of those two series compare to that of CCWS? Are teams subsidised in those series, and do the series/teams operate at a profit? I don't know the answer to those questions but if they do not, how does CCWS expect to buck that trend?
I believe that GP2 is full of 'non-name' drivers who pay to race. A1GP is a Mid-East sheikh/prince owned/funded series, that can't be on a commercial footing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewmcm
As someone who only really became aware of AOWR when 'our Nige' whooped everyone in '93, but then enjoyed the series (CART) from then on, and then Champ Car when the change happened, (personally I never thought much of IRL - they seemed to race on strange ovals!) I still think the only sane thing to do is get to a combined series ASAFP; however I can't think how this could ever happen
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
I guess you didn't read my earlier post did you? We're done.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Gary
Could this rumor posted below on AR1 be what happens next? Despite all the OWRS owner group's spin to the contrary and bashing of Laguna Seca's crowds, I have heard that San Jose is a big money loser and is on shaky ground. On second thought, most of California is on shaky ground! It is funny how Mark Cippolini flip flops his spin to suit whatever favors ChampCar. One day San Jose is the model of success and now the next day it is dissed as he justifies the potential move back to Laugua Seca, which was ridiculed for not promoting. I wonder what kind of boffo sanction fee SCRAMP will pay or will it be another track rental/self promo deal?
"Champ Car might move SJ race to Laguna Seca
Rumor has it that Champ Car may axe the San Jose street race from its schedule after three years and that Champ Car could move the race back to Laguna Seca. The Mickey Mouse San Jose track was too small from the outset to make for good racing and too small to erect enough grandstands with viewing areas conducive to the paying customer's enjoyment."
Okay, I am back from the cyber dead but only to share the following from Gordon Kirby who does a remarkable job of summing up American open wheel racing's current plight and the prospect of San Jose being canceled later this week. Here is the link to today's GK offering:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie...t_is_no89.html
So what happens next?
[OT]Tap had a song called "Back from the Dead"[/OT]
The last bit in Kirby's article only painted what we knew has been going on for the last decade: the France family planned a monopoly of American racing. Possibly (cue B-movie-type mad scientist) the world! But I don't see nascar knocking F1 out of the way....
Still and all, they've done a good job of exploiting the split (and putting on my tinfoil hat, causing it so they could exploit it), and it's nearly certain that they won't let the irl get too big.
What happens next? irl completes its morph into CART II, and the France family buys TG out so they can be the Vince McMahon of the racing world. nascar becomes WWRE, Inc. (World Wide Racing Entertainment).
After that, they go after that punk, Rupert Murdoch.
Honestly, DrJack, how many times do you have to ask that? We've all answered that one way or another. What exactly are you looking for with that question and what has been lacking in any answer you have seen? Any answer you get is going to be speculation since whe don't know what will happen until it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJackMiller
Perhaps my answer (among all the answers I and others have given you) is "What should happen next?"
That was a good column by the very solid and consistent Gordon Kirby. France's lasy comment is telling when he warns that Indy Car racing could get ruined. Of course, what he didn't say is equally important, that NASCAR would benefit from the split, smart man that France was. But even he couldn't have anticipated this nightmare.
That said, as for what happens next, I will repeat what I've said elsewhere on this forum site: You saw a preview of what happens next at Montreal during the Busch race at the Villenueve roadcourse. Drivers in NASCAR from all sorts of foriegn backgrounds, racing one another in an exciting even, and, unlike Formula 1, running hard, braking at turns, and passing one another at many different points along the track. NASCAR is already in Mexico, bought CASCAR, and came to Canada for the first time with one of its premier series, and it's known they are examining Europe. Montreal is your motorsports chrystal ball, DrJack.
The scramble to piece together a Champ Car World Series schedule must be no fun at the moment. On the subject of "what happens next", I have put together the following potential schedule from what I am hearing. The races that are uncertain are in bold and potential new events are in italics:
Race 1: Las Vegas - I keep hearing that this race is being "shopped" in search of a new promoter (from either series) and it may be "moved" to the end of the season to buy time. My guess is it will be "postponed" like Denver, China and Korea if no one new can be found to cover the very significant losses.
Race 2: Long Beach - No dramas there, thankfully.
Race 3: Houston - Ditto but losses are still significant.
Race 4: Portland - This race has been a money loser for ChampCar since they have guaranteed the shortfalls to the promoter. My guess is that it will stay on the schedule and ChampCar will take the hit again because they are short on races in the USA. If it happens the date will move to accommodate more races in Europe or elsewhere. Here is more on the subject:
http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/ore...540.xml&coll=7
Race 5: China - Legal woes, promoter issues and sponsorship shortfalls will cause this race to be "postponed" again if listed.
Race 6: St. Jovite - This race will happen again but it will still lose money for Champ Car and the promoter.
Race 7: Edmonton - The promoters have to be asking themselves how will this event ever work financially given last year's visible decline in attendance and Champ Car's unstable state? My hunch is it will continue but only with the significant shortfall being covered by the OWRS owners.
Race 8: Cleveland - Although things looked better last year, this event cannot be close to making a profit. It looked like attendance has improved to somewhere in the mid 20,000 range on race day but I don't think that is nearly enough to make it a financial winner.
Race 9: San Jose - I think this race is a long shot due to the serious losses I hear were suffered by the promoter and Champ Car's currently awful image can't inspire confidence in trend savvy Silicon Valley. As covered in an earlier post, Laguna Seca will be where Champ Car races if they race in Northern California in 2008. If they do, it will be a track rental or with the OWRS owners covering the probable losses for the promoter.
Race 10: Road America - I believe that this was a Champ Car subsidized event in 2007 to nolster the number of US races and I think it will happen again with the OWRS owners covering the loss for the promoter simply because there are no real takers elsewhere.
Race 11: Zolder - This event did not look like a money maker so it could be replaced with another European venue or my guess is that the OWRS owners will be asked to cut the sanction fee to give it time to grow and keep Assen viable.
Race 12: Assen - This event is the bright sport of Champ Car's 2007 season and will be back. The promoter must certainly have hope that this event will continue to grow and that it will turn a profit soon.
Race 13: Surfers - This event is stable and thriving regardless of Champ Car's woes.
Race 14: Mexico City - All does not appear to be bueno in the relationship with Carlos Slim, Gerry Forsythe and Champ Car. Significant numbers of grandstand seats have been cut and there is no longer a front running Mexican driver in the series. It looks to me like this race is losing energy and some say it is only a matter of time until it is gone. What a pity if true.
Races 16 and 17: Europe - I hear of a half dozen European race possibilities for Brands Hatch to Imola. It seems like the OWRS owners are focused on this as the series near term salvation strategy so I imagine two new races will be added with promoters paying decent sanction fees.
Race 18: Orlando - Don't bet on it.
My guess is that the 2008 Champ Car World Series Schedule will be either 11-13 races if in survival mode, or 14-15 announced races if in "making a statement" mode. One thing seems clear to me though: The OWRS owners will have to subsidize many of the events in North America if they are to continue.
The IRL is easier to see in that it will have the same schedule as 2007, less the MIS event, which brings the schedule down to 16 events. I also keep hearing that the rumored race in Southern California is a long shot for 2008.
Zolder is a difinite go.
China waits for FIA approval.
San Jose needs the city to get behind their race or lose it.
I would like to see both SJ and LS on the schedule.
Look for more new races.
Not bad for 4 years.
If baby France--( Big Bill, like him or hate him, he was a gear-head, is long gone, leaving the greedy )--wants to become a Mince VcVahhon of racing-he will first have to aborb drag racing which is doing incredibly well and has GENUINE CAR RELATED companies putting SPONSOR money in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins
IT may not happen tomorrow but baby France found out with his generic engine that when Detroit says no, it means no, so it is only time before greed takes its deserved toll.
Bob
Okay, I will make it simple. What happens next has a lot to do with what Champ Car really has in terms of viable North American races going forward:
Las Vegas - Right. I'll buy some more Enron shares please with a steaming side order of Fueled by Visa.
Long Beach - The original and still the best in class but a long way from what it was in a decade ago. Grandstands are smaller and fewer and sponsorship looks down. Ratings are also poor which can't help matters.
Houston - A semi-lousy track in the middle of a bumpy parking lot. A money loser because there is not enough sponsorship or attendance. Rumors suggest that Mike Lanigan along with at least one partner at N/H/L are actively looking at jumping to the dark side. If true, who can blame them given the state of things. What happens next is beginning to look like a game of musical chairs for open wheel promoters.
Portland - A money loser with attendance far below the claimed "30,000." If ChampCar isn't supporting teams, why then would they prop up promoters now that they are operating "in the black"?
Cleveland - See Houston comments about Lanigan. Same financial concerns exist.
San Jose - From what I hear those foolish city fathers of San Jose won't be getting behind the event so a track rental or co-promoted race at Laguna is in the cards. It doesn't really qualify as viable in my book so see my Portland comments.
Road America - Only viable in terms of being on the same card with ALMS and from what I hear the terms are anti-lucrative for OWRS.
Other races - Pulllease don't start with that "Three Day Festivals of Speed" delusional rap again. You need to be drinking Kool Aid laced with speed or LSD to fall for the "new event" predictions in the USA after 2007. Orlando? Another Enron on wheels.
The bottom line is that Long Beach is really all there is.
How about Canada and Mexico?
Edmonton - We have seen it all before ... declining attendance, slipping sponsorship and losses that won't stop. This is also not a major market. Too bad since it is really a very nice event.
St. Jovite - As lovely as the track is, the race only happened out of ego and desperation. It does not represent a major market, nor does the attendance appear to be sufficient to justify the likely expense.
Toronto - Still a great event. The Long Beach of Canada. The same comments apply about recent attendance and ratings.
Mexico City - This just looks like an event that will soon run out of reasons to exist. The Pesos and the mojo are fading.
The bottom line: Toronto is all there really is.
So now, like Michael Jackson, ChampCar is off to new markets where people don't seem to care if it is cool or credible anymore at home. OWRS's owners seem to overlook that there will be plenty of competition from F1, GP2, A1GP, Renault World Series, F/ Nippon/Asia, etc. so I don't have a good feeling about how this will turn out.
What is to stop the Surfer's (ore any other international) promoter from replacing the near brandless spec car series called ChampCar with another similar open wheel series if OWRS dies? Will the casual fans and topless holiday party crowds really care - especially if a local hero is behind the wheel?
There you have it. Not bad for four years?
Not good would be a better way of saying it.
Nice rumors to try to denigrate the series.I don't think anyone believes half of that.
And yet the attendance and interest remains for CC events and other series can only pretend they are going to get them.
:laugh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
What's so funny? CC struggles to maintain a stable schedule year in and year out (not to mention teams, drivers, sponsors, etc.). Looks like yet ANOTHER supposed successful CC race (San Jose) will be cancelled. So much for a successful business plan. When does KK launch the "new" 5-year business plan? its obvious the current plan is failing miserably unless of course, the plan includes room for cancelling multiple races in a given season. In that case, the plan is working marvelously.
4 years tweaking the schedule is okay with me as long they keep getting good events.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvtjoker
SJ will be replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
With what? Laguna Seca? "Poor attendance" was a major factor in why they left there in the first place?
Let's just take a look at some recent comments about Laguna Seca from Kevin Kalkhoven from an interview in the March 12, 2007 edition of the Monterey Herald:
"There was 9,000 people the last time we raced (Laguna)," said Kalkhoven.
"I had 90,000 in San Jose. If I could race in front of 90,000 at Laguna I would come back in heartbeat. But people don't want to come to the race. They want the race to come to them."
Kalkhoven may have been over-inflating the attendance figures, but his point is well made. The No. 1 reason why Champ Car left Laguna Seca was because of poor attendance. It isn't just about revenues from the gate. Less people mean less sponsorship, which is where the real money in auto racing is found.
Part of the problem for Laguna was switching the dates of the race from late fall to early spring. The switch also occurred too closely to Champ Car's split with the Indy Racing League, a tumultuous period where some of the top drivers opted out of Champ Car.
"The race wasn't getting promoted enough," said Brazilian driver Bruno Junqueira, a three-time runner-up in the points standings. "I remember racing here and seeing the hills filled with fans. It was so packed that we had to wait three hours after the race before braving the traffic. It's not like that anymore."
Kalkhoven clearly remembers those days too, which is why he still holds the Spring Training event at Laguna. The drivers love Laguna, and if they had their druthers, they would race exclusively on road circuits.
"I'm saddened that we don't race here," said Jimmy Vasser, a former Champ Car champion who now is co-owner of PKV Racing. "This is truly among the greatest tracks in the world."
From owners to drivers, everybody involved realizes the state of auto racing in the United States. Outside of NASCAR, which is still king but has seen a decline the past few season, auto racing is mostly an afterthought.
Getting fans to pay attention is hard enough. Getting them to fork over hard earned money and fill the seats at a race track is darn near impossible.
"The economy has changed, and with it our market has too. There is a lot more competition for people's time," said Kalkhoven. "They don't want to drive down or stay at hotels just to watch a race. So we bring it to them. We make it a festival, where the wives and daughters have something else to do and the husbands and sons can still walk down pit row.
"It's a model that's proven to work."
Original link:
http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mo...d/16881627.htm
Is it me or do the OWRS owners seem deceptive and delusional? I keep coming to this conclusion: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, and you join Jerkin' Joe and the Pookster on my permanent ignore list.
Okay, I know, the IRL is, um, as appealing to some of us as a pile day old dog food but this isn't about ChampCar or IRL any longer. It is about the survival of open wheel racing in North America. OWRS has had its chance and they have clearly failed unless we all somehow accept that having a tiny handful of shaky spec car races in the USA spaced months apart with anonymous drivers is okay, especially if the whole point is to give credibility to the majority of Champ Car races that aren't on American soil. Huh? How the hell does this all remotely make sense any more? It is clear that there is no real sponsor base here in America that will support this rich guy’s fantasy space camp that our once great series has sadly become and there is now precious little audience. The truth is that there are probably far more devoted Trekkies than committed Champ Car fans.
Earth to Kalkhoven. Earth to Kalkhoven. Come in Commander Kevster. Come back from Planet Penguin immediately. The inhabitants of Planet American Open Wheel are on to you just like they were with your sleepy alien skiing buddy Anton from Planet Vision. They are getting ugly just like those scary creatures that are after you from Planet JDS/Uniphase. Do you copy, Commander Kevster? Do you copy? Private Sanquin, are you there? Is anyone there who can hear me? Death Star Mindy is approaching. We have no more spinton torpedoes and our farce fields are down. Come in Commander Kevster! Come back to Earth!!!
Oh, the inhumanity!
Is what happens next about to happen? From Autoracing1.com:
"Champ Car might move SJ race to Laguna Seca UPDATE Champ Car World Series will announce Wednesday that the series is returning to Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca for a race the weekend of May 16-18 according to sources close to the negotiations.
The event will share the race weekend with the previously announced Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series.
Champ Car was a regular at Laguna Seca through 2004. San Jose hosted races from 2005 through this year. It appears that race will not return.
Champ Car held a "spring training" testing session at Laguna Seca last March which was attended by more than 3,000 fans. Spring training events elsewhere have drawn crowds in the hundreds at most.. The series announced last week it would once again hold its spring training at Laguna Seca in 2008. Monterey Herald
[Editor's Note: This does NOT yet mean the San Jose race is being cancelled, but it might]"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
Mazda!
God bless the people at Mazda for standing by open wheel and sports car racing in America without a hint of the political ugliness that has defined our day and age. Mazda's programs are an ideal blueprint for how manufacturers should engage in motorsports. I just hope they don't get burned or turned off by all the egotism, unprofessionalism and dishonesty that has tended to define the OWRS owner's behavior during the two seasons that Mazda has been involved. I am a fan and a race at Mazda Raceway is a good news, but saying one thing and then doing the opposite is not. Our series should never have left this wonderful circuit under the premise we did and to come back now only proves that this was not a promoter problem but a series managment issue. If/when there ever is one series, this venue is a keeper and, more importantly, so is Mazda.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Well, what happens next happened. I guess Commander Kevster had at least one spintron torpedo left:
"Champ Car moves San Jose race to Laguna Seca The Champ Car World Series announced today that its 2008 race in northern California will move from the streets of San Jose to the road course at historic Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca in Monterey.
“We’re pleased that Champ Car will be able to maintain a strong event in northern California,” said Steve Johnson, Champ Car President & CEO. “While it’s always tough to leave one city for another, in this case, it makes sense strategically for us and works for San Jose given the on-going developments of their downtown. We enjoyed three great years in San Jose, and certainly anticipate that the fans there will head south to enjoy Champ Car racing at the beautiful Monterey Peninsula’s Mazda Raceway circuit.”
Considered one of the finest permanent road courses in North America, the 2.238-mile Monterey Peninsula’s Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca will host its 23rd Champ Car World Series event next year at a date to be announced later. The first Champ Car event was held at Laguna in 1983, and though its long run of races ended the past three years, Champ Car returned there this year to conduct its pre-season testing. The testing also served as the official kick-off for the Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca’s 50th Golden Anniversary season this year.
“Needless to say, we are thrilled to announce during our 50th Anniversary season that Monterey Peninsula’s Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca will once again host a Champ Car World Series event,” said Gill Campbell, CEO/General Manager of Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca. “Our fans loved the 2007 pre-season testing, and they will certainly enjoy Champ Car’s return with a race next year. Our mutual affiliation with Mazda made this relationship a natural one for us, and we all share in the excitement. While we look forward to announcing our entire 2008 schedule soon, we wanted to share this exciting news with our fans as soon as possible.”
Organizers of the Grand Prix of San Jose recently informed the Champ Car World Series that on-going residential developments in and around the 1.5 mile downtown track would hamper next year’s race. For 2008, new housing developments on Balbach Street would affect the back straightaway, while upcoming construction in the Boston Properties lot would mean the loss of the race’s main “Gold Grandstands” on Almaden Boulevard.
“The reality of racing on a temporary street circuit is that change happens continuously and this is especially true in a dynamic and growing city center like downtown San Jose,” said Grand Prix President Dale Jantzen.
The Grand Prix provided the city of San Jose with world-wide exposure as part of the Champ Car World Series. Broadcast internationally in each of its three years, the city of San Jose estimated that the economic impact to America’s 10th largest city was approximately $70 million over the three-year period.
Champ Car’s announcement that they would race in Laguna Seca in 2008 is the first of what is expected to be several exciting announcements in the months ahead regarding 2008 race venues. The full 2008 Champ Car World Series calendar will be announced later this fall."
Well, I'd certainly like to hear what our pal Robin Miller says about that...
Chapparal66, as you have pointed out, RM doesn't seem to care much about our series anymore. Robin did however post the following today though about Tonybucks on tap, which if I recall was one Dr. Jack's predictions:
"INDYCAR: Revenue Sharing Plan Set for 2008
In an effort to help its smaller to mid-level teams and possibly attract new ones, SPEEDtv.com has learned the Indy Racing League will implement a revenue-sharing plan in 2008 that pays guaranteed money to IRL regulars but eliminates race purses, except for the Indianapolis 500."
Link to full story:
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/40171/
Well, cancelling San Jose was not good, but returning to Laguna Seca is superb.
Credit where it is due. Well done CCWS and the leaders for returning to Laguna Seca. Let us all hope that there is more good news to come, because it is really needed.
One thing I just thought of!
Has anyone else noticed that it is the "Street" races that are falling by the wayside and the permanent "Road" courses are where CCWS seem to be looking for stability and profitablity now! Funny how a few years ago, the leaders made such a big deal of taking the racing to the Cities. Well, I gues they tried and that plan isn't working. As ChaimWitz pointed out, only two street races are really working, Toronto and Long beach.
Conversely, the European Road Races look promising. CCWS should call Dr. J Palmer at Octagon and enquire about Brands Hatch again. If CCWS ran during one of the summer months with our local BTCC then a good crowd would be guaranteed. Run the full GP circuit and let the cars stretch their legs.
I don't like the fact that the core USA races seem to be dwindling, and we no longer race on ovals, but if travelling the world in search of foreign money will help CCWS to survive, then fair enough.
I prefer CCWS alive than dead!
PS: Starter, as a Brit, am I allowed to congratulate Dario Franchitti on winning the IRL championship in this particular forum? Apologies, but he was a Champ car driver before, so there is a link. The finish at Chicagoland was just a fairytale! Wonderful. Racing is racing after all.
Whoa, wait a minute, I never said that Robin Miller didn't care. If anything, he cares too much. He wants Champ Car to stay viable. As long as they do, there is still, as remote as it may be, a chance to get Our Good Friend Tony George to the table (if he can be convinced that AOWR is dying a slow death without a merger). The thing is, with CCWS making more bad moves than good, and then getting his hard card taken away, RM probably figures he has easier access to the IRL and thus an easier time getting stories. Champ Car seems to be throwing one brick wall after another at RM while the IRL, while probably not liking RM a while lot more than CC does, nonetheless is being kept in the news by RM while CC's media exposure is fading more and more by the minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
Thanks for posting the SPEEDTV.com link, ChaimWitz. With this announcement today, the distinction between the IRL and CCWS becomes clear. Obviously, quite a bit of thought went into this new policy, and the IRL brass probably consulted with a few of the teams for reaction and fine tuning. I'm sure TG encouraged this new move as a way to not only ensure the long term viability of his regular teams, but also as a way of recruiting new ones. After careful consideration, the idea was presented and reaction was positive. The leads to the impression of a solid game plan in place that is designed to gradually build the series. The IRL, giving the TG devil his due, has been taking carefully measured steps for some time. Having said that, as careful as they have been, in terms of selecting venues and other moves, they have had some issues. Changing to start time of the Indy 500, which prevented drivers like Tony Stewart and Robby Gordon from doing a Texas motorsports 2 step, was silly and probably served only to help NASCAR. And other things, like Tony saying "33 is just a number" was downright stupid. The fact that popular Sarah Fisher may have to start her own team just to have an IRL ride is another example, though a mild one.
Champ Car, by comparison, has been like a firehose run amok and spraying everywhere. Often, it misses its target and The Amigos come up with with a lame explanation to account for poor planning and even poorer excecution. And with a North American market with small smoldering fires in terms of ratings and audience dropoffs, CCWS aims their hose over at Europe where there is no flame of fan loyalty and are looking at a challenge of enticing sponsors to back the series both here and over there, thus somewhat duplicating what F1 already does. Occasionally, the hose hits a viable target, as it has with power to pass on the Cosworth engines, the new DP-01 chassis, and the announcement today of CCWS returning to Laguna Seca after the at best questionable performance of racing in the streets of San Jose are bullseye hits for CC. But those are now few and far between, and CCWS continues to try to find its soul. It hasn't helped that CC has had to cancel dates and a lot of them, these past two years. The Korea and China fiascos make Champ Car look ridiculous and chaotic. The letting go of various American drivers, to NASCAR and the IRL, such as the much talked about AJ Allmendinger and Ryan Hunter-Reay, don't halp the general perception of the series in comparison to its competition. Whereas the Amigos, who at one time looked angelic saviors who saved a proud motorsports tradition, now are starting to look spoiled little rich boys fighting over a sandbox, which is precisely how Our Good Friend at 16th and Georgetown has looked on many occasions. The difference here is that by virtue of the moves the IRL has made lately, it seems to me that TG is starting to learn from his mistakes, whereas The Amigos are starting to repeat theirs over an over.
I can't tell you how it pains me, indded, angers me, to have to say that. But the drop in ratings on TV and inconsistent fan attendence due to a lack of promotion of the events from a schedule that times looks like it is hastally put together and delivered late, only to then have some dates cancelled due to an arrogant attitude toward the FIA and not securing the overseas dates that the series bragged about, cannot be denied.
Meanwhile, the IRL goes about its business, concentrating on its plan of solidifying its hold on the American market. The irony here is that they started out wanting to be different from CART/Champ Car, but they have ende up copying a lot of what made the series a jewel in the first place. And more importantly, the IRL, while I'm sure they would deny it vigorously, continues to look at what Champ Car is doing today, and learning from the mistakes they continue to make. CCWS is almost a living laboratory for the IRL to learn what to do and what not to do. Think about it. Has the IRL cancelled many dates lately, other than Michigan (and even that wasn't a cancelled date in mid-season, just an announcement they wouldn't be coming back, they staged the race this year), despite that in years past they have shut down tracks like Naareth, Pikes Peak, and Disney Speedway? No. They have a solid, if still anemic, TV package with ABC/ESPN, which CC also got into this year, but the IRL has more of a history with them. Do they have more "name" sponsors? Yes, just a few more, but they are names we all recognize, whereas, CC has McDonald's and CDW and not a whole lot else.
On the face of it, how you can blame Robin Miller for getting fed up with his personal treatment at the hands of Champ Car, and getting frustrated at their bad judgement? Open wheel is a passion for him and to see it crumble is hearbreaking. No, he cares about it alright, but at the end of the day he still has a job to do and right now that job seems to take him to the IRL. He'd like to be reporting more on Champ Car I'm sure but they have all but blacklisted him. I'm sure he'll be back to it when he's finished capping the IRL season for SPEEDTV.com. Then I'd like to see what he has to say about 2008, for both series.
Great post Chapparral66 and I stand corrected. Now back to what happens next:
1) A major IRL team will go after and possibly land Justin Wilson and or AJ Almendinger. They have the money, the programs and the reputations to pull this off. They also need to given what is about to be announced regarding DF and SH.
2) I now hear from very good sources who have been 100% right about recent events that the Vegas GP is indeed dead just like Phoenix, San Jose and Denver. Stick a fork in it. The "3 Day Festivals of Speed" concept is not working and those who have been considering jumping into the ChampCar street race promotion biz are now thinking twice. Like so many things this year, the issue is down to whether Champ Car or the promoter cries uncle first. I hear that here in no longer any meaningful support for it in Vegas and the Freudster did indeed present the "opportunity" to buy the race to one or more of his former pals in the IRL during the Detroit weekend. This is a shame because it was a fun event. But there were only 20,000 seats erected and about 65%-70% were occupied on race day so this had to be a financial bloodbath. Doesn't anyone ever consider the consequences when taking on such events without a realistic view of open wheel racing's current economy, or lack there of - especially in Champ Car?
I started posting here because I have been to over 100 CART/Champ Car races in the past decade and I have tried to keep the faith but I can't any longer. Dr. Jack's thread got me to finally say: "enough is enough". The events of the past two weeks convinced me that this is the “now or never” moment for getting our sport back on the path to success.
The OWRS bunch have failed all of us miserably this year. Like many I know, I won't spend my time or my personal credibility on their behalf ever again. The IRL is not what it should be but I don't see it melting down like some here would have us all believe (and like ChampCar is actually doing). I don't like how TG and his crew have gotten to where they are at but, I now feel the same way about the OWRS false prophets.
Something has got to give here or this whole thing is going nowhere fast. There will now be no merger in my opinion which is sad. Just like the Thuderdome, two series enter, one series leaves. It is nature at work. Survival of the fittest on display for us all to see.
The promoters who are still talking to Champ there can smell blood given their frest history of event implosions. Steve Johnson and John Caghet will get pushed around, ground on and marginalized further. I know many promoters and they are not ones to cut slack to dreamers.
Beyond that, I fear now that some teams and drivers we care about will leave to build real business or take real jobs in racing incomes that reflect their talent... some may go to the IRL and a few to ALMS or Grand-Am. They are after all, realists by nature. I can't help but think they see that handwriting on the wall and even though what is written is now in several foreign languages, it still reads, "Champ Car is toast".
What a tragedy. Am I angry? Hell yes! I know, some of you still have hope. So does Sarah Fisher and Milka Duno. I know some of you are saying ;but the racing is good!" Well, the racing was good in CART too and it died. This isn't about racing. It is about business and Champ Car isn't one. The proof is now out there for all to see.
Great post Chapparral66 and I stand corrected. Now back to what happens next:
1) A major IRL team will go after and possibly land Justin Wilson and or AJ Almendinger. They have the money, the programs and the reputations to pull this off. They also need to given what is about to be announced regarding DF and SH.
2) I now hear from very good sources who have been 100% right about recent events that the Vegas GP is indeed dead just like Phoenix, San Jose and Denver. Stick a fork in it. The "3 Day Festivals of Speed" concept is not working and those who have been considering jumping into the ChampCar street race promotion biz are now thinking twice. Like so many things this year, the issue is down to whether Champ Car or the promoter cries uncle first. I hear that there is no longer any meaningful support for it in Vegas and the Freudster did indeed present the "opportunity" to buy the race to one or more of his former pals in the IRL during the Detroit weekend. This is a shame because it was a fun event. But there were only 20,000 seats erected and about 65%-70% were occupied on race day so this had to be a financial bloodbath. Doesn't anyone ever consider the consequences when taking on such events without a realistic view of open wheel racing's current economy, or lack there of - especially in Champ Car?
I started posting here because I have been to over 100 CART/Champ Car races in the past decade and I have tried to keep the faith but I can't any longer. Dr. Jack's thread got me to finally say: "enough is enough". The events of the past two weeks convinced me that this is the “now or never” moment for getting our sport back on the path to success.
The OWRS bunch have failed all of us miserably this year. Like many I know, I won't spend my time or my personal credibility on their behalf ever again. The IRL is not what it should be but I don't see it melting down like some here would have us all believe (and like ChampCar is actually doing). I don't like how TG and his crew have gotten to where they are at but I now feel the same way about the OWRS false prophets.
Something has got to give here or this whole thing is going nowhere fast. There will now be no merger in my opinion which is sad. Just like the Thuderdome, two series enter, one series leaves. It is nature at work. Survival of the fittest on display for us all to see.
The promoters who are still talking to Champ can smell blood given the fresh history of event implosions. Steve Johnson and John Caghet will get pushed around, ground on and marginalized further. I know many promoters and they are not ones to cut slack to dreamers.
Beyond that, I fear now that some teams and drivers we care about will leave to build real business or take real jobs elsewhere in racing with incomes that reflect their true talent... some may go to the IRL and a few to ALMS or Grand-Am. They are after all, realists by nature. I can't help but think they see that handwriting on the wall and even though what is written is now in several foreign languages, it still reads, "Champ Car is toast".
What a tragedy. Am I angry? Hell yes!
I know, some of you still have hope. So do Sarah Fisher and Milka Duno. I know some of you are saying "but the racing is good!" Well, the racing was good in CART too and it died. This isn't about racing. It is about business and Champ Car isn't one. The proof is now out there for all to see.
You are so right. amazes me these guys are so rich yet so incapable. I am going to carry on dreaming till the day it dies though cos I love CC too. Come on KK.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz