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I must say to all of you before mentioning your own favvo driver only 13 yrs old winning on home soil everything:
Emil Bergkvist must be considered the most talented this year. He showed he´s hard stuff. Mentally also. And he should be in a WRC2 car immediatly!!
After mentioning his name. Be my guest and tell everyone your favourite.
For Bergkvist I'd either like to see him in an R5 doing ERC or I'd like to see him in WRC doing either JWRC or Dmack Trophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
What Bergkvist showed this year is quite similar to what Lefebvre showed last year (3 wins and early title in JERC). Lefebvre did a bit more by dominating JWRC as well... Bergkvist did great things this year, but it's not a guarantee to (short term) success in bigger classes, as we see with Lefebvre.
Its several potential young guns in Norway, but just a few that have the needed backing.
Ole Christian veiby is of course one of them, Marius Aasen also.
Steve Røkland is real fast to, hopefully the fundings is enough to brake it!
My maths makes him too old to belong on this thread :-/Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_tiger
Nornbugger: Generally good point. Ok, let´s make some border. Age 26 and below? (like JWRC rules)
Suninen !
9th in WRC-2 with only 5 rallies (so better result than Camilli...). He is very good with the old Fabia S2000.
Kruuda.
Only guy who got close to the Skodas on gravel.
Certainly in WRC2 the guy I am probably most intrigued to see next year is Suninen and how he develops. Hopefully Kruuda pulls together the funds for a programme.
Kruuda confirmed last week that he will do 7 events, starting in sweden. The car hasnt been decided yet.
We will see if the program will happen. Kruuda was aiming to drive WRC2 series also this year, but competed only three events (P,I,PL). What was the reason to skip Finland and all the other events? Money or bad car..Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
He had many problems with the DS3 R5, so better for him to use Fiesta or Fabia...
Kruuda says he owns to DS3 R5s. I don't know what kind of arrangement there is, but if manages to get back, my money is on DS3 R5.Quote:
Originally Posted by rp
Kruuda skipped the other events because after the first three events he saw that it was impossible to fight for the title, so they canceled the program and put the money to next year's program.
He will be there next season.
Stumbled across this two-part piece ranking the top-10 up-and-coming rally talents. Stuff like this is always good for a bit of discussion.
http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/r...part-1-665410/
http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/r...part-2-665466/
Judging by a lot of recent comments I think people will say Bergkvist should be higher - which I agree with.
It does show that the French seem to have a conveyor belt of talent. A shame there's nothing similar here in the UK.
I think quite many of the names there can't be called 'up-and-coming' as they've been on the radar for years.
Yeah they have a good ladder composed of internal competitions then federation, independent or manufacturer support to get to the next levels. Loeb supporting and mentoring drivers is just another example. I think in many countries the way to find talent is more disorganized or "old fashion".Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Yeah many are known but you can consider them "up and coming" since they're not at WRC level yet, I think that was the intention. A nice overview anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Judging talent is very difficult because You need to know a lot about the person in question, and You need to know a lot about the benchmarks, is. The competition to judge this person or talent against.
Both Loeb and Ogier has shown that true talent outweighs experience. Neither had started early, neither had big budgets and so on.
The current crop of WRC-drivers, no matter how hard they try, have extreme difficulty beating a truly talented driver.
But Ogiers only talent wasn't a great inate understanding of movement physics, but also a great work ethic and a killer instinct.
The drivers on the list are all good drivers, but if any of them will be great is difficult to judge.
Being a Norwegian I know a little about Ole Chr Veiby, and I am not sure I would call him a special talent. He has had very comfortable surroundings with both money and professionalism around him, but because of this he has been able to drive a lot more than any of his competitors. Still he is not the fastest in a 2wd in Norway, even with an R3T vs R2s. But still I rate his chances of becoming a WRC driver high, because he is fast enough to get noticed, the team has money so he can drive a lot, and they work professionally. So they will reach WRC by persistence and resources, and that's okay.
Then its easier to judge the talent of someone with comparably little experience beating drivers with more experience.
Camilli and Sunninen are two drivers in such situation and I can see the logic behind Toyota perusing both. If my information is correct, they both came trough similar paths. Both very fast in go karts, and then very fast from the outset in rallycars. Camilli more extreme than Sunninen in having driven less, but accomplished better results pr km.
And then there is age.
Personally I am asking questions about the high focus on Young age, when history shows us that the opposite is a benefit.
Rallying on Ogiers level is extremely difficult, and one thing the naturally gifted needs to explore is the ratio between risk and speed. Everything in rally history so far sugests that age is a benefit in such a matter. Maturity is the word.
Take Lappi.
A very fast driver - but with a very high risk level. And I am even betting he doesn't see it that way, even after multiple offs. That's because he is a young boy who thinks he is imortal.
But how to rank Lappi?
Well, Loeb never had a disappointing season, he always over performed.
In his debut as a Citroen WRC driver he had the toughest team mates, but still it didn't take long before he surpassed them.
Lappi? Well, 2015 have been dismal. He has had his moments of glory, but he has been in the best car in the best team, and he hasn't been totally dominat as really he should be, if he was of extreme talent.
Lappi is extremely fast when he knows the road, or when the rally fota his driving traits. Like in Ireland. But he is a high risk driver on new rallies. His driving trait I wont disclose, but I see that he is still doing it.
But still, he is a very very good driver, wich most probably will end up in a WRC car, but who will, if not there is a lack of competition or a change in driving, end up having more the career of Latvala than Loeb. But there are many rally drivers willing to donate a kidney to be the next Latvala.
What I am on about is that to judge talent is difficult, and You need a lot of info and background. But our two Sebs have some commons: They both came from other sports. They where both quite old. And they where both fast from the word go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Seems the UK have only two ways for drivers to progress to WRC- the Mikkelsen way or the Meeke way. Nothing in between and sweet FA support from the governing body.
That's how I judge a driver, fast from the word go. Seems these days most drivers are not fast from the word go, they try and increase their speed as time goes on. Doesn't work, no raw talent from the start = no talent any time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
Well, they have offered courses in fitness, PR, etc but nothing that really helps, and will never provide ££££££ as current license holders would revolt.
Fitness and PR, what more could you want.....LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Wasn't there some Elite something or other thing going? Never heard a thing about how that went. And didn't Robert Reid run something to get drivers to the next level. Whatever the next level was......
All a bit pathetic/half hearted/money for the person running it.....
I Think its easy to forget how few rallies in the WRC class Loeb and Ogier needed to get to the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel157
If You make a comparison between Mads Østberg and Kris Meeke you will find that the former have driven an enormous amount WRC rallies in about the same pace. 3th to 6th fastest. Will he suddenly turn to an event winner? He will maybe have a boost coming to Ford, if he tries to drive that car a little in the Citroen way, but then he will most probably"settle", and be as fast as today.
Østberg didn't reach the WRC by talent competitions and winning cups, but by money and persistence.
Meeke on the other hand obviously has raw speed. With very little WRC experience he has outpaced Østberg by a considerable margin, taking the fight to Ogier on several occasions. He was fast in an WRC car from the first chance that he got. He must of course continue to work on pace notes and other factors that will make his driving safer, but he is on track
Comparing Østbergs experience vs Meeke, he should be able to be both faster and safer, but again he is outpaced by a lesser experienced driver.
Then we have drivers with obvious talents but who looses it on the way.
Mikkelsen is constantly in and out of the sweet spot, and has a much more rugged driving style than what he used to have. The super special in Finland this year is a very good example of how wild and rugged he can be. In Norway there's always talk about that he drives with an older chassis, different objectives etc, but driving slower and crashing is not a good combination in my book. But Mikkelsen can suddenly hit the sweat spot and be as fast as Ogier, as in Sweden, but goes back to old traits when under pressure, like outbraking him self.
Neuville was an obvious choice for Hyundai after a terrific season in Ford. But as I stated then, it looked like he was in a negative spiral towards the end of the season. Neuville is a very talented driver, but he does know what his talent really is, so left to his own he will start over driving.
He is in that sense very similar to Petter Solberg, they both lost their way when pressure mounted, and there was a change of scenery (cars),and they started to over drive and drive with their shoulders above their ears.
This is a difficult place to get out of, because You have to dear to be slow in the right places to be fast again, wich is difficult when You are already to slow.
Petter needed a complete change of venue.
Loeb and Ogier has been fast from the outset, and they have never had a season bring really of form. Ogier had a small slump in 2014,because he was irritated about the starting order, but he still finished second on Finland and he still clearly won the championship. Loeb had 10 extremely good seasons in a row, with one second and nine titles, and would still be Ogiers strongest contender if he was still at it. This is how high a bar they have set.
Camilli will be interesting to follow, but also his talent will be difficult to judge because he now has done 3.000 kms of testing for Toyota. But he will come to a lot of new events, and we will see how he fears. My prediction is that he will start outpacing Mads in the 2017 season. (either in a Ford or a Toyota), and he needs to if he has real talent. It will be interesting.
I dont know if it´s concious or what but Lundefaret doesn´t mention Bergkvist. The list of discussion says 10th. For a new crowned ERC3 champion killing homedrivers on Ireland in first race. Doing everything and more what he was supposed to manage and - just 10th. french guys you hear for the first time when Loebish takes him under wings is ranked better? A young Norweigan - Veiby - for sure a good one but what has he done better than Bergkvist?
So it seems the list doesn´t say much. Upcoming? Agree with Lundefaret - Lappi, Tidemand? Should not be on the list. Age?
Admit I laughed when I saw it.
For me Gilbert, Folb and Veiby don't really belong to the list. All 3 did the Citroën DS3 Trophy in WRC this year (officially named JWRC). Those are 3 from maybe 5 drivers who competed in the whole JWRC... It's a pitty that there are so much options for young drivers. There's JERC (last year the most interesting championship to follow, when it comes to young drivers), JWRC, D-Mack Trophy and many national junior championships and trophies in many countries. It's harder to judge the drivers when there aren't enough (quick) drivers doing these championships.
This may be a little off-topic, but it's a topic that's important for the development of young drivers all over Europe. I hope the FIA takes a look at the "ladder" of classes in cars (R1, R2, R3, R5, before jumping to WRC). R1 isn't really expensive, but it's too slow to be called a rallycar. Many people who drive an R1 have a faster car when they are doing recce than during the rally... For fun/budget in almost all countries drivers prefer old Saxo's/Clio's/Civics etc. Also for sponsors some R1 isn't interesting as you can't score any decent result with it in a rally with a normal entry field. Then R2 is a huge step. The cars are quick and exciting to watch, and in many countries there's a good coverage in cups/trophies or junior championships. The problem for almost all drivers is that they are too expensive to drive. To buy a new R2 you need some 55K to 60K euros (for 208 or Adam or Fiesta 1.0). Rental costs for these cars are easily 10 000 euros and more for a national rally. I think apart from JERC or a very strong national junior championship or trophy (are there any left?) it's hard to justify these costs towards people who invest their money in it... Then there's R3, which is even much more expensive and gets less interest than R2. We're seeing that this is starting to be a step that is left over by most drivers, who try to go directly from R2 to R5. R5 seems to be a great formula, as the number of entrants and the number of sold cars prove.
In my opinion it would be nice if FIA rethinks the R1-R2-R3 classes, with having R3 ditched (as there's a lack of interest anyway), and renewing R1 and R2 classes. With new cars/engines on the market, couldn't it be possible to get R1 and R2 from the same basic car? A car with 1.0 (such as Ford's Ecoboost or Opel's EcoFLEX, or the 1.2 PureTech from PSA) could make a perfect basic car. I'd like to see a new R1 car, with the power of almost current R2 but much more restricted in the area of suspension and gearbox. Something that's still relatively affordable but already exciting to drive and watch. Then there could be an R2 car, like the current R2 car but with rules to allow some more power (like bigger restrictor on turbo cars). With some more power and a good competition among some drivers, the R2 cars would be at least as exciting to see as the old S1600 cars. Maybe it could be possible to do a big upgrade on an R1 car to make an R2 car from it, so the step from R1 to R2 could be smaller as well? Nowadays R1/R2/R3 have a completely different base car. People who buy an R1 now, do a season with it, then want to move on, and have to sell a car nobody wants... In reality it surely isn't as easy as explained here, but the way it is now isn't really the way to go for young drivers who don't have some millionaire behind them. I think Opel showed a good formula with the Adam Cup.
Pitty that FIA isn't interested in the "health" of this sport called rallying...
Hello Rallyper, ment nothing by not commenting on Bergqvist. He is a good driver that has performed very well even under the pressure of factory backing. It's difficult to say how good the Opel is, but he has performed very well on several rallies he has done for the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
He should be on somebody's radar, but the step from 2wd to 4wd is quite big in terms of budget and so on.
There are several Young Swedes with potential.
And to put things in to perspective.
Steve Røkland in an R2 outpaces Veiby in an R3T, and Bergquist outpaces Røkland.
I totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
The R3 class in the WRC is a dead end.
The are are way to expensive.
In England they run a MINI Cooper challenge. The cars are based on the new MINI Cooper S Works. They have a Quaife sequential gear box, about 260 hp, brakes, dampers etc. They cost about 35.000 pounds.
An R3T cost about 90.000 pounds. And its ment to be a car for young drivers.
What happens is that many young talents are discriminated by default, because the budgets run wild.
I don't know how much EVEN Rally spends on Veibys JWRC season, but they rent all services from top team Print Sport, wich is not cheap. And they have off course bought a car etc.
That's very cool for EVEN Rally that they have the resources to do such things, but for the factory teams it presents a problem. Because young drivers talents can be exaggerated because its difficult to understand how much experience they have.
A young driver like Veiby has done more kms in a rally car than drivers that are 10 years older, so how to compare them?
When Mikkelsen was 20 he had done more kms in an WRC car than most of the regulars in the championship. His best show of talent came in the Norwegian Subaru Cup, and in a S2000 facing other VW prospects.
With a young driver with huge experience the curve of improvement can have a flatter trajectory than that of a less experienced driver with more true talent.
In the WRC it will be very interesting to follow Camilli and Meeke, because they still have a steep trajectory of improvement, where drivers like Evans and Tannak fail to deliver.
This sounds to me like abandoned N3 class!Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
Top N3 cars have a lot more power than R2 - I think that Civic Type-R or Alfa 147 have around 230-240 Hp.
The rules could take some modifications, yes.
We have R1A (1.4) and R1B (1.6). R1A is clearly a total failure with no interest at all. R1B seems to work somehow especially as the old immortal Civic VTi must disappear one day.
Than we have R2B (1.6), R2C (2.0) and R2T. While R2B has been pretty successful and R2T may work well too the R2C is the only sub-class of the R system which has never been homologated by any manufacturer. As such it shall be either canceled or modified to something meaningful.
What can be done? R1C (nearly same thing like N3)? Doubtful as the 2.0N/A engines nearly disappeared from the market. R1T (near stock car with 1.2 turbo engine)? Maybe this is the way to have relatively powerful and cheap car. Nowadays every B-class car is available with small turbo engine.
Why does an entry level rally car have to be so slow and boring that You hide it from Your friends. A Golf GTI, a MINI Cooper works etc are cool cars that could be built for low money. R1s are very expensive and dead slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
you think that Tänak doesnt have a steep trajectory of improvement anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
Well... In '12 he finished 8th in the championship (with 2x mechanical retirement), then also had one podium finish just like in '15. In '15 he finished 10th in the championship, with the worst results in the last events. If you call it a steep trajectory it must be going downhill. Everyone was expecting better results from him, including you, I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
What I meant was that do you think that he doesn't improve this upcoming season anymore? And of course I was disappointed with this results.
I think he will improve because he goes now second year straight into a next season and Raigo has some experience now. They were really struggling in the beginning of the season. You don't understand Estonian but if you looked inboards from WRC+ then you could hear Tänak screaming "READ" at him. Later on in the season I didn't hear this anymore.
If he doesn't improve then even I agree that he should be dropped.
No, he has flattened out and I know why.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
First he is not close to having perfect pace notes, and a perfect partnership with his codriver. And he has a driving trait that causes him to have to many moments. As a driver he is incredibly fast, but he needs to be more of an athlete in terms of the boring stuff, like pace notes.
If he sorts that out he can continue his improvements. If not it will be more of the same. Glimpses of greatness and big disappointments I am afraid.
About small R cars, does anyone know more about the "local" R2 : Polo R2 in India, Polo R2 and Toyota Etios R2 in South Africa / Namibia ?
Are they cheaper than european R2 ?
OTQuote:
Originally Posted by vino_93
It's a bit like believing in Santa's, but I'm really hopping Opel is developing the R5 Corsa and could be in '17 WRC2 with Bergkvist!Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
I'd love to see Opel step up to R5. But it's debatable whether being in that car would be good for Bergkvist. Surely he'd be better off in a proven package. Although I agree 2017 is a more realistic year for him to attempt WRC2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
FIA should rethink R1, R2, R3 and R4, because there's room for a 4wd entry class (there's a huge gap between 90.000€ R3's and 230.000€ R5's and closing that gap would also benefit young drivers).Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
The whole R Group came from the assumption that limiting rally homologations and providing manus official tuners a sort of rally car building monopoly would involve more manus in the sport. That's eventually happening, but in a very slow pace and with a big cost for the vast majority of rally costumers: official tuners enginering is the state of the art, but will always be expensive (and FIA cost control works only on paper).
Probably ASN's homologations for local private tuners developed 2wd and 4wd rally cars will be the solution that FIA will, sooner or later, get to fix this problem.
Btw, even if some technical aspects aren't perfect, it's fair to say that since the earlier 00's, with Junior WRC introduction, the rising of young drivers in WRC became much easier than in the past.
No problems with that. But what should he do in the mean time? 2016 is coming rapidly and nothing yet from his management.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi