Ah sorry, I thought the question was about R4. My bad. My answer is not about N5.
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Ah sorry, I thought the question was about R4. My bad. My answer is not about N5.
Maxi Rally, N5 and R4 share the same PSA block, with very similar preparation. N5 regs also allows the use of the Mitsubishi Evo engine, reduced to 1.6L, but no tuner has gone that way.
It’ll be interesting to follow Fuster times; expectably he’ll be slower than top R5 guys between 1 and 1.5s/km, but faster than rival N5 Suzuki’s. Overall Garcia and the i20 guys are the favourites. Live timing: http://www.atodomotor.com/online/2017/ferrol/
I guess that the reason is in the allowed modifications by the rules because otherwise I would expect everybody picking the proven Mitsubishi 4B11 base engine over the PSA EP6 which is well known for many issues both in stock and performance variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
R4 prototype is currently build in Oreca, first gravel test planned in August.
http://www.diariomotor.com/competici...-2017-mdmc.jpg Photo:diariomotor.com
Not the brightest debut for the N5 Clio built by RMC at Ferrol (7th overall). Fuster was a bit off the pace (8 months without competing) and the car got rear diff issues during the afternoon. They were always slower than N5 rivals, the Suzuki’s Swift from ARV that managed to get their best CERA result so far (Vinyes 4th and Antxustegui 5th, still over 1,5s/km slower than R5’s). Ares (i20) won the rally and he’s now leading the series ahead of Garcia (Fiesta).
Sarrazin, Suninen and Astier as test drivers: http://www.oreca.fr/blog/2017/08/07/...le-kit-fia-r4/
Can you take any car and drop the R4 kit in? I mean could you do it to an Escort Mk2? Honda Civic Type-R? Lancer Evo VI? Or does it have to be a new model?
I don’t think so. In the kit presentation and the specific regulations is said the car must be “produced in a quantity of at least 2500 units within 12 consecutive months.” Imo that means that the car must have a valid basic group A homologation.
But there’s no mention that the model must belong to a family of a car that is produced in a quantity of at least 25 000 units within 12 consecutive months. Maybe it’s possible to implement the R4 kit to a more exotic car.
http://cdn.oreca-group.com/wp-conten...ette_R4_EN.PDF
A CATEGORY FOR ALL PRODUCTION MODELS
Thanks to the R4, each importer, group of concessions or private team can enter a
model of their choice (produced in more than 2500 units over a period of 12 months)
in competitive racing at a reagional and national FIA championship level.
http://www.fia.com/file/58633/downlo...token=mPk3dYbt
"The R4 kits may be fitted only on Series Production Cars with 2-wheel drive or 4-wheel drive produced in a quantity of at least 2500 units within 12 consecutive months."
https://twitter.com/Oreca/status/902108980268367872 <---Oreca's test R4 car
I think most will agree, 108k euro before transport and misc fees is a little high for a car to bridge the gap between R2 and R5. A decent used R5 with spares can now be had for $160-180k. A new R4 with spares will be just as much.
I really like the idea of a 4wd class based on an actual production chassis such as an STI. Just like the old Group N days, but more like the older R4 class with freedom to modify suspension arms, subframes etc. The drivetribe article posted earlier in this thread pretty much nailed it in my opinion.
Older version of R4 for Mitsubishi and Subaru was bad way. It helped to modify some parts, but in basic it was still group N car and other parts were not dimensioned for other stronger parts...
After the 3D drawings on the Lada and Dacia, Oreca is now showing an Etios (Toyota’s B segment car for South America). Apparently their target for the R4 isn’t the European countries. If so, why change R5 regs?Quote:
Originally Posted by electroliquid
New project from Dytko Sport - Nissan Micra is being prepared for R4 kit:
http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/z-mysla-o-r4,79129
http://www.autoklub.pl/news/foto/201...906_79129h.jpg
Looks great! With the R4 kit it'll certainly be more expensive than with the usual Dytko proto specs.
Same news in English: https://www.facebook.com/ProtoCars/p...99714613568412
I wonder if Dytko Micra will have R4 & proto version..?
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Nice but price of an r4 will go to 180.000euro easy!
maybe it would need some European cup for R4 cars. Like the R-GT cup few years ago, but with better promotion and avoiding all the weak points of the R-GT cup concept.
As a introduction class for 4wd as it was intended, the Dytko Proto way of thinking, of keeping cost down, would have been a winner. Both among young drivers on the way up, gentleman drivers and clubdrivers in national series.
Maybe they need to call that option R3, since current R3 Fwd is slowing in popularity.
The Dytko cars are great cars and everything is designed in 3D cad so the fit and finish is also very good. For $65k you can have a decent set up too. This would have been the way to go. Utilizing the old Evo or STI power plants is also good one since parts are easily available. Maybe call it R4 lite
I'm trying to see if I can purchase a Dytko car for rallying in Australia. I've heard it's not an issue, but I would not be able to participate in Rally Australia since it's an FIA event part of the WRC.
Could we have a category where smaller engined 4WD's and bigger-engined 2WD's would compete equally like the early Group A days when a VW Golf could beat an Audi Coupe Quattro?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
The R4 Kit concept is interesting, especially because it allows to have a new breed of rally cars without manufactures direct involvement, but FIA is missing its implementation by choosing a unique supplier and not being able to effectively control the kit price (for the 108k Oreca is selling only a part of the kit; some vital parts are sold as options for an extra price!).
Besides, to impose a single spec Kit car as a rally category can make total sense to develop the sport in countries or regions were there’s a small rally market, but there’s no real need for that in Europe, where dozens of private rally tuners are long established.
The best option would be to set international rules for this new R4 category, which would included some mandatory components (like it was done with AP4 and N5), allowing different tuners from each country to homologate the cars on their local FIA affiliated ASN. That way a larger number of R4 cars would become immediately available, making them cheaper and easier to get.
You can enter WRC event with national car but can´t score points with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
First it was only allowed for non euro events (longhaul) but now each rally can take national cars if they want. (Corsica and Finland had national cars)
Portuguese João Fernando Ramos will debut Fiesta N5 by RMC in Catalunya.
In Holland we are preparing an Production class. That means cars which you can buy at every dealer new or second hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
max 2.0 turbo or 3.5 atmo fwd or RWD. Every car gets special electronic case onboard which monitors you're speed and acceleration to have a nice competition. We are finalizing the rules at the moment. All those FIA options are way to expensive to start rallying.
I spoke with a contact who works for a WRC team and he mentioned an interesting point about the R4 cars. He said countries like Indonesia and even Australia have large taxes on imports. People who want a Skoda or Fiesta R5 in Indonesia to compete on the APRC would have to pay a large amount on taxes to import the cars. The R4 class allowing people to add their kit into any car that has a certain number of cars manufactured overcomes this issue. So a lot of people in Indonesia, Australia and other countries where import duty taxes are insane will benefit from these cars. Hence why Oreca are showing the Toyota Etios as a base car. This little Toyota was mainly for South America and Asian markets. The same markets which pay hefty duties if trying to import a car which is not sold in their region... So the target for R4 is most likely not Europe...
That’s quite true, but in Europe there’s also room for a cheaper 4wd category. Many Evo and Impreza owners can’t afford a R5. R4 makes total sense, but not with this expensive and single supplied Kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
First rollout next week, then some tests in France end of the month and beginning of October big test session on gravel and tarmac.
I think it shouldn't be a problem. Some Dytko cars have been competing in New Zealand for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/nzrc-driv...nnon-chambers/
http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/race-agai...iting-new-car/
Here's Shannon Chambers and his Dytko Polo Proto:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LTnG15STA...06156495_n.jpg
Ah, the good old MSA......friend to rallying since when??Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal the 2nd
M-Sport chief rally engineer Chris Williams doesn't believe in the idea of R4 cars:
https://rallysportmag.com/m-sport-un...4-kit-formula/
If the new cars are based on the same FIA bulkhead & floor modification limits that apply to R5 cars then anyone should be able to build one in his shed & get an MSA Cat2 logbook. If you build one from a kit where more than 20 kits are supplied a year you may even manage to convince them it's a "Specialist Rally Car" and get a Cat1 book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal the 2nd
Nothing at all to do with the fact that a fair chunk of M-sport's business involves selling and running r5 cars of course!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
(Not that I'm cynical or anything...)
I know what you mean - I was writing somewhat hypothetically! Anyone trying to build a car to the FIA drawings themselves still has to climb a mountain to convince the MSA that what they've done is OK. As you say, with the trickle-down of old WRC & R5 cars added to the S2500 & R5+ options that are avaiable it's unlikely that we'll see much of either Dytko or R4 cars in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal the 2nd
Firstly, let me introduce myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
My name is Marv, and i'm a rally enthusiast and freelance journalist. In my Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/indonesianrallyfanbase/) I post quite a lot about the R4 because rallying at here is currently suffering, which one of the causes is lack of exciting cars on 4WD category, currently only fielding old Group N cars.
No people buy and run R5's at national championship because:
1. As the quote above said, the import tax is very expensive, which is 120%.
2. To made things worse, Indonesia goverment banned people from import used cars. Rally cars must run thru public roads on road section.
3. So, for example a new Skoda Fabia R5 price is (what i found from internet) €221,000. And with 120% tax = €265,200, which if converted into Rupiah means 4,2 billion, which is far too much.
4. Lack of manufacturers which build R5. From 9 manufacturers (both factory & privateer), there are only Hyundai, Peugeot, Proton and Mitsubishi whose sold their road cars in Indonesia (Ford withdrew last year). And all of them are quite inferior compared to Toyota & Honda, especially Peugeot & proton. That also means it's difficult to import spare parts.
There are no Mirage R5 at here, which the road car is quite popular on Indonesian road.
I, and many other people at here, is hopeful about R4 because we can build cars from stuff at here (Etios for example, which at here named Etios Valco). We know the complete car are still expensive, for example:
R4 kit + 120% tax (don't know the exact percentage): 108.000+22.000=130.000 euros
Brand new/used Toyota Etios Valco (at here Toyota's re-sell price are strong): 9500 euros
Manufacturing & development price: 6400 euros
So, the total=145.900 euros, or let say it 150.000 euros, which is 2.4 billions if converted to Rupiahs. That's quite a half fron R5 car completed with tax.
And there are some cars which cost even less than Etios Valco, like Honda Brio, which costs 7300 euros, or Datsun Go.
My calculations could be wrong though, but we try to save money as much as possible, and for us R4 is perfect. I admit that Oreca can cut something unimportant/too expensive to make it cheaper.
You still need to remember about motorsport pieces which are not part of R4 kit - dampers - good ones would be 10k, seats, belts, extinguishers, all smaller things, etc, etc.
I know, but not sure the tuners at here would choose the high quality one. Usually they choose the cheaper one, or for wealthiest teams like Pertamax Motorsport, the between.Quote:
Originally Posted by br21
I have a question btw. Is it possible to use used cars (as long the model is same as the new one), or even the older model, or is it must be a new one?
Hi Marv,
By your calculations the tax is not 120% but 20%. Is that tax (20%) additional to the VAT?
I found from Wikipedia that the VAT in Indonesia is 10%. Here in Finland it’s 24%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax
Is it the same tax problem with AP4 cars?
I don't think it has to be a new one. Specific regulations for cars with R4 kit http://www.fia.com/file/58633/downlo...token=mPk3dYbtQuote:
Originally Posted by mArvAlcao17