another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

17th December 2012, 19:19
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

Do you need to be banned again? Since I'm not a Mod these days, I can't do it, but I'll be happy to report your insults if you wish.

So now you're bullying me?
Go ahead report me, I didn't insult anyone anyway.
17th December 2012, 19:24
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

well while we are having this discussion lets at least balance out the history: Now I have not checked on bombings but will probably do that as well.

April 1982 - SOUTH KOREA - Police officer Woo Bum Kong went on a drunken rampage in Sang-Namdo with rifles and hand grenades, killing 57 people and wounding 38 before blowing himself up.
August 19, 1987 - BRITAIN - Michael Ryan, a 27-year-old gun fanatic rampaged through the English town of Hungerford, killing 16 people and wounding 11 before shooting himself.
July 1989 - FRANCE - A French farmer shot and killed 14 people including members of his family in the village of Luxiol, near the Swiss border. He was wounded and captured by police.
December 1989 - CANADA - A 25-year-old war movie fan with a grudge against women shot dead 14 young women at the University of Montreal, then killed himself.
November 1990 - NEW ZEALAND - A gun-mad loner killed 11 men, women and children in a 24-hour rampage in the tiny New Zealand seaside village of Aramoana. He was killed by police.
September 1995 - FRANCE - A 16-year-old youth ran amok with a rifle in the town of Cuers, killing 16 people and then himself after an argument with his parents.
March 13, 1996 - BRITAIN - Gunman Thomas Hamilton burst into a primary school in the Scottish town of Dunblane and shot dead 16 children and their teacher before killing himself.
April 28, 1996 - AUSTRALIA - Martin Bryant unleashed modern Australia's worst mass murder when he shot dead 35 people at the Port Arthur tourist site in the southern state of Tasmania.
April 1999 - USA - Two heavily-armed teenagers went on a rampage at Columbine High School in Littleton, Denver, shooting 13 students and staff before taking their own lives.
July 1999 - USA - A gunman killed nine people at two brokerages in Atlanta, after apparently killing his wife and two children. He committed suicide five hours later.
June 2001 - NEPAL - Eight members of the Nepalese Royal family were killed in a palace massacre by Crown Prince Dipendra who later turned a gun on himself and died few days later. His youngest brother also died later raising the death toll to 10.
April 26, 2002 - GERMANY - In Erfurt, eastern Germany, 19-year-old Robert Steinhauser opened fire after saying he was not going to take a math test. He killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two pupils and a policeman at the Gutenberg Gymnasium, before killing himself.
October 2002 - USA - John Muhammad and Lee Malvo killed 10 people in sniper-style shooting deaths that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area.
April 16, 2007 - USA - Virginia Tech, a university in Blacksburg, Virginia, became the site of the deadliest rampage in U.S. history when a gunman killed 32 people and himself.
November 7, 2007 - FINLAND - Pekka-Eric Auvinen killed six fellow students, the school nurse and the principal and himself with a handgun at the Jokela High School near Helsinki.
September 23, 2008 - FINLAND - Student Matti Saari opened fire in a vocational school in Kauhajoki in northwest Finland, killing nine other students and one male staff member before killing himself.
March 11, 2009 - GERMANY - A 17-year-old gunman dressed in black combat gear killed nine students and three teachers at a school near Stuttgart. He also killed one other person at a nearby clinic. He was later killed in a shoot-out with police. Two additional passers-by were killed and two policemen seriously injured, bringing the death toll to 16 including the gunman.
June 2, 2010 - BRITAIN - Gunman Derrick Bird opened fire on people in towns across the rural county of Cumbria. Twelve people were killed and 11 injured. Bird also killed himself.
August 30, 2010 - SLOVAKIA - A gunman shot dead six members of a Roma family and another woman in the Slovak capital Bratislava before killing himself. Fourteen more people were wounded.
April 9, 2011 - NETHERLANDS - Tristan van der Vlis opened fire in the Ridderhof mall in Alphen aan den Rijn, south of Amsterdam, killing six before turning the gun on himself.
July 22, 2011 - NORWAY - Police seize a gunman who killed at least 68 people at a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling political party, on the small, holiday island of Utoeya. Anders Behring Breivik is later charged with the killings, as well as with an earlier bombing in the center of Oslo which killed at least eight people. He appears in a closed court hearing in Oslo on July 25 and is ordered detained for eight weeks in solitary confinement.

I think you are missing a few USA cases, especially quite a few recent ones.
17th December 2012, 19:25
Rollo

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Type

Did the place you copied that from include tables for burglary, for robbery and for homicide?
Are the definitions the same in all countries considered?

Using the British definitions on US Crime stats:
Burglary: 716.3
Robbery: 2319.3
Homicide: 6.6

This graphic which came from the Daily Mail, is for the EU. Britain in terms of the rules surrounding gun ownership actually has the most lax laws in the EU.
So yes, "restrictive Gun laws is working out just great" because the countries with more restrictive Gun laws have fewer crimes.
17th December 2012, 19:25
Roamy

well according to the news bombings in pakistan and iraq killed over 50 people today - but i guess these don't count - the euros only care about disarming Americans. Kind of interesting I would say!!
17th December 2012, 19:33
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

The table Mr. Vop posted uses data from each individual nations records. It may be worth noting that what is classed and reported as a 'violent crime' will vary from country to country. So any comparision between nations is pointless.

Bingo!
Any chart about violence where the USA is not top of it, let alone in top ten is not credible.

As I said 20 killing a year in Vienna, Austria, which totals 2 million of the 8 million inhabitants and is the most violent part of the country anyway, and Austria ranks 2nd in the world according to Vop's chart, most probably every ski accident has been accounted for as a violent crime. :D
17th December 2012, 19:34
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

well according to the news bombings in pakistan and iraq killed over 50 people today - but i guess these don't count - the euros only care about disarming Americans. Kind of interesting I would say!!

My finger points to the US for those bombings anyway, so what's you issue with the euros now?
17th December 2012, 19:44
Roamy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

My finger points to the US for those bombings anyway, so what's you issue with the euros now?

See excellent point why we MUST stay armed. You Euros blame us for everything wrong with the world. We have to buy allies in the middle east and asia to avert a nuclear war which is on the horizon thanks you Euros not policing your own neighbors.

Regarding this thread: If you can stand there and shoot your Mother in the face then gun control is far from the answer. You guys sit on your butts allowing Iran to go nuclear and then you will be crying to the world when you realize you could be in the path. I know your answer is to just go Muslim which you are and then you can band together with the rest of our enemies. Well the end game is going to be a hell of a light show so for that no guns will be necessary.
17th December 2012, 19:47
donKey jote

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

well according to the news bombings in pakistan and iraq killed over 50 people today - but i guess these don't count - the euros only care about disarming Americans. Kind of interesting I would say!!

I guess the euros couldn't care less about what you do with your unalienable rights.
Kind of interesting the paranoidos only care about arming their kindergartens!
17th December 2012, 19:51
donKey jote

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

Regarding this thread: If you can stand there and shoot your Mother in the face then gun control is far from the answer.

The guy apparently had mental issues and part of the answer is surely not so easy access to guns for people with such mental issues.
The mother also appeared to have mental issues.
17th December 2012, 19:55
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by donKey jote

The guy was a nut and part of the answer is not so easy access to guns for nuts.
The mother also appeared to be a nut.

Conclusion - there's a lot of nuts over there, and the combination of nut + gun(s) = not good.

Are we too busy being careful not to 'upset' everyone by allowing these 'nuts' more freedom in case we oppress their civil liberties, human rights etc?
17th December 2012, 20:02
Starter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

well according to the news bombings in pakistan and iraq killed over 50 people today - but i guess these don't count - the euros only care about disarming Americans. Kind of interesting I would say!!

That's an interesting point. In this and similar threads, there is a huge amount of outrage and finger pointing about gun violence in the US. I don't recall any threads about the mass bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Spain, Israel, Nigeria, Pakistan and other places. Most of those bombings were aimed specifically at civilian targets. The atrocities committed in sub Saharan Africa boggle the mind. The death toll from most has been substantially greater than from any one gun incident here. It's true that they were not the acts of a single deranged person, but rather by organized political/religious groups. To me, that makes them even worse. Still, the loss of life has been dramatically greater than from any gun violence in the US. Where is the righteous outrage about all that? It makes one wonder why that is.

The mass gun deaths here represent a small fraction of total deaths. More people, children included, die in any given week on the US highways than died at that school. Some as a result of true accidents, but many because of the criminal behavior of others. Any outrage? ...... (silence) Guess not. Perhaps we should all try and get a sense of perspective about what the world is really like instead of what we would like it to be.
17th December 2012, 20:07
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

More people, children included, die in any given week on the US highways

OK. But were any of those deaths pre-meditated?

There are many organisations who dedicate time and money to making roads safer - because they see the need to do something about it.
17th December 2012, 20:09
donKey jote

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

Conclusion - there's a lot of nuts over there, and the combination of nut + gun(s) = not good.

Are we too busy being careful not to 'upset' everyone by allowing these 'nuts' more freedom in case we oppress their civil liberties, human rights etc?

I apologise for using the derogatory term. Pretty insensitive and ignorant of me. :( :mark:
17th December 2012, 20:09
Dave B

Quote:

Originally Posted by donKey jote

The guy was apparently had mental issues and part of the answer is surely not so easy access to guns for people with mental issues.
The mother also appeared to have mental issues.

Well quite. Mental illness isn't confined to the USA (although one might question whether a society which demands payment for all but emergency healthcare is well equipped to deal with it), but no other industrialised country has the rate of gun crime that they do.
17th December 2012, 20:26
Roamy

Quote:

Originally Posted by donKey jote

The guy apparently had mental issues and part of the answer is surely not so easy access to guns for people with such mental issues.
The mother also appeared to have mental issues.

Yes the Mother should have had a secure gun safe knowing her child was whack. Now this would be a good recommendation instead of gun laws. People with mentally challenged should be counseled indepth about guns and proper handling and control.
17th December 2012, 20:29
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

Yes the Mother should have had a secure gun safe knowing her child was whack. Now this would be a good recommendation instead of gun laws. People with mentally challenged should be counseled indepth about guns and proper handling and control.

Perhaps, for their own safety, they should be refused a license....
17th December 2012, 20:33
Roamy

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

People dying from accidents in modes of transport and children having their lives deliberately turned off by a nutter with an automatic weapon is not even remotely comparable. The fact is cars are necessary tools for daily life in a modern world and guns are not. Nobody needs to have automatic weapons in their homes for protection. If you live in a society where you are either that paranoid or there genuinely is a need for such protection then your country is in a complete mess. In this thread we have had people smugly suggesting they live in a free society, yet then go on to say they need to protect themselves against, intruders, rapists, murderers, cops, and the bit that made me laugh, the government! I can appreciate having guns is all you people know, but from us looking in it looks like a total shambles.

Right - coming from a guy who's government fried 9 million people - you are just the guy I want to listen to.
17th December 2012, 20:35
Roamy

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

Perhaps, for their own safety, they should be refused a license....

I would probably not have a problem with this but of course the Mother would be judged sane - so now back to the gun safe!
17th December 2012, 20:37
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

Right - coming from a guy who's government fried 9 million people - you are just the guy I want to listen to.

Are you the whole ticket?
17th December 2012, 20:38
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

I would probably not have a problem with this but of course the Mother would be judged sane - so now back to the gun safe!

She was hoarding stuff (including guns) for the end of the world. Seriously, there is a loose wire there somewhere, maybe she watched T2 once too often?
17th December 2012, 20:40
Dave B

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

Right - coming from a guy who's government fried 9 million people - you are just the guy I want to listen to.

I've run it through Google Translate but I'm still none the wiser. What's the point you're trying to make?
17th December 2012, 20:41
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

Right - coming from a guy who's government fried 9 million people - you are just the guy I want to listen to.

Er, pardon? There are quite a lot of people here waiting for your explanation with great anticipation.
17th December 2012, 20:44
Starter

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

She was hoarding stuff (including guns) for the end of the world. Seriously, there is a loose wire there somewhere, maybe she watched T2 once too often?

Where in the world did you get that?
17th December 2012, 20:44
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

Er, pardon? There are quite a lot of people here waiting for your explanation with great anticipation.

Something tells me we ought not hold our collective breath........
17th December 2012, 20:46
Starter

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

OK. But were any of those deaths pre-meditated?

It makes a difference? Dead is just dead.
17th December 2012, 20:48
gloomyDAY

President talking last night near Sandy Hook, so in case any of our European friend's missed it, here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBCYgaS83vs
17th December 2012, 20:48
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

That's an interesting point. In this and similar threads, there is a huge amount of outrage and finger pointing about gun violence in the US. I don't recall any threads about the mass bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Spain, Israel, Nigeria, Pakistan and other places.

We can start a thread about the sheer uselessness of the US and Allied efforts in bringing peace and stability to two of those countries if you like — one in which some of your countrymen (perhaps even yourself) would no doubt start bleating about the lack of gratitude being shown towards the US for its fight against terrorism.

I also find it sad that you would suggest that killings in the US are somehow less surprising, and thus no more worthy of comment, than acts of violence in the likes of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

The mass gun deaths here represent a small fraction of total deaths. More people, children included, die in any given week on the US highways than died at that school. Some as a result of true accidents, but many because of the criminal behavior of others. Any outrage? ...... (silence) Guess not. Perhaps we should all try and get a sense of perspective about what the world is really like instead of what we would like it to be.

A meaningless, empty paragraph and a meaningless, empty argument. How, in moral terms, do you equate everyday accidents with someone entering a school and shooting children dead?

Your notion of what the world is 'really like' strikes me as a paranoid, insecure one in which these supposed 'realities' lead to security measures of absurdly inflated proportions.
17th December 2012, 20:49
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

It makes a difference? Dead is just dead.

Not in the eyes of the law it isn't, hence differing sentences for murder and manslaughter, to cite one example.
17th December 2012, 20:50
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

It makes a difference? Dead is just dead.

Yes, it does make a difference. To blithely say that we shouldn't read too much into these killings, because more kids die on the roads is to miss the point by a light year.
17th December 2012, 20:50
Starter

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

Er, pardon? There are quite a lot of people here waiting for your explanation with great anticipation.

I don't wish to put words in his mouth, but I believe it was in reply to this quote from henners88 in post #262: ".....that paranoid or there genuinely is a need for such protection then your country.....".
17th December 2012, 20:51
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roamy

See excellent point why we MUST stay armed. You Euros blame us for everything wrong with the world. We have to buy allies in the middle east and asia to avert a nuclear war which is on the horizon thanks you Euros not policing your own neighbors.

Regarding this thread: If you can stand there and shoot your Mother in the face then gun control is far from the answer. You guys sit on your butts allowing Iran to go nuclear and then you will be crying to the world when you realize you could be in the path. I know your answer is to just go Muslim which you are and then you can band together with the rest of our enemies. Well the end game is going to be a hell of a light show so for that no guns will be necessary.

Wow, what an inarticulate rant. Posts like this make you appear slightly unhinged.

I for one don't blame the US for everything wrong with the world. Enough of your national victim complex. I certainly blame your governments, of both colours, for exacerbating some of the world's problems.
17th December 2012, 20:53
Starter

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

Yes, it does make a difference. To blithely say that we should'nt read too much into these killings, because more kids die on the roads is to miss the point by a light year.

No, the real point is people dying because of the action of others. You get much more (pardon the pun) bang for the buck by addressing highway fatalities.
17th December 2012, 20:53
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

That's the biggest issue - sound mind.

That's one way of putting it, but he wouldn't have done such damage without a firearm.
17th December 2012, 20:55
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Afraid? Not at all. The government is afraid of us. And that is how it should be.

You try and talk the talk, but you sadden rather than scare.
17th December 2012, 20:56
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

Let's try and be a little less personally insulting, shall we?

Goodness, if ioan's comment about paranoia counts as a personal insult, I'd suggest you're a little over-sensitive.
17th December 2012, 20:57
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

That's one way of putting it, but he wouldn't have done such damage without a firearm.

I agree - but the monumental task of disarming the American public may cause more trouble than it hopes to solve.

I don't profess to know the answer, but I think (and this thread is testament) there is a deep seated attitude toward firearms in the States that you'd be hard pressed to change.
17th December 2012, 20:59
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starter

No, the real point is people dying because of the action of others. You get much more (pardon the pun) bang for the buck by addressing highway fatalities.

And you don't think that is being addressed already?
17th December 2012, 21:00
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

You may think you have freedom but every day I hear reports of how such basic freedoms of Speech, Thought and Self-Determination are virtually non-existent.

'Every day'? Really? Honestly? From whom, or which media outlets, do these reports come?

(Sorry, in asking you to respond, to take you away from the vital job you clearly have of chronicling the lack of freedom in European nations based on detailed personal reports from reliable sources as opposed, naturally, to bits at which you've taken a vague glance on right-wing nut-job websites.)
17th December 2012, 21:00
Starter

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

I for one don't blame the US for everything wrong with the world. Enough of your national victim complex. I certainly blame your governments, of both colours, for exacerbating some of the world's problems.

Actually, we can blame your country for all of the death and destruction in the middle east because if not for Germany the country of Israel would not exist, nor would there ever have been a need for it. It's also true that Germany has paid the price for that and it's now done. But that's off topic for sure and I apologize to everyone for taking it there.
17th December 2012, 21:01
Dave B

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Afraid? Not at all. The government is afraid of us. And that is how it should be.

I'd missed that gem.

Your government could wipe you out in a heartbeat if it so wished. They're not in the slightest bit scared of you.

Ask yourself this: if you decided to stage an uprising in the vein of Tunisia or Egypt, do you honestly think you could take down the government? Seriously?

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page