Same Sex Marriage

It is worth pointing out that, with children, only one needs to start the name calling, and others will join in. And they join in not because they are particularly mean, but because for them, better to be on the side of the class bully than risk being beaten up.

When I was bullied, while I kept it to myself and told no-one about it, I'd decided I had no wish to be 'on the side' of the bullies, and sadly, I was fair game.

I appreciate what you are saying about Children facing less potential issues if they grow up in a conventional Male / Female family unit. However, this is not a show stopper but merely one small issue in a bigger picture.

We have Children being brought up by parents that have seperated or single parents. They might be brought up where one of the parents have passed away. They might be in a care home themselves or living with foster parents. They might be of a different ethnic origon or religion from most of the other kids. Have different colour hair, a disability, learning problems, odd socks or pick their nose.

In fact, all Children are different which makes them the same. Bullying is slowly being stamped out and will continue to be as focus is applied to this problem.

A man and a woman have Children in a loving married relationship is an ideal that can offer a stable platform for successfully raising a child / children. That's not to say the Child will grow up as a well rounded person with no issues but I agree it's a good start. Equally, if a loan parent or a same sex couple offer the same stable environment, then the Child has a similar chance in life. They might have additional challenges but any parent faces challenges. It's a compromise and balancing act each and every day :D

There are more Children out there that need a stable home than suitable people that are prepared to offer them. That's the real issue.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I appreciate what you are saying about Children facing less potential issues if they grow up in a conventional Male / Female family unit. However, this is not a show stopper but merely one small issue in a bigger picture.

We have Children being brought up by parents that have seperated or single parents. They might be brought up where one of the parents have passed away. They might be in a care home themselves or living with foster parents. They might be of a different ethnic origon or religion from most of the other kids. Have different colour hair, a disability, learning problems, odd socks or pick their nose.

In fact, all Children are different which makes them the same. Bullying is slowly being stamped out and will continue to be as focus is applied to this problem.

A man and a woman have Children in a loving married relationship is an ideal that can offer a stable platform for successfully raising a child / children. That's not to say the Child will grow up as a well rounded person with no issues but I agree it's a good start. Equally, if a loan parent or a same sex couple offer the same stable environment, then the Child has a similar chance in life. They might have additional challenges but any parent faces challenges. It's a compromise and balancing act each and every day :D

There are more Children out there that need a stable home than suitable people that are prepared to offer them. That's the real issue.

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Not every obese child is picked on, nor every child wearing glasses. But if a child is going to be a target, there are underlying issues that those that bully will pick up on.

I am not casting aspersions on the adoptive parents, but alluding to one of the myriad complications that they face.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

This is one of the worst arguments of all. It's like saying that someone who's the subject of a racist attack is to blame because of their skin colour.

Oh, and many of those who would deploy this argument against gay adoption are also the sort of individuals who go on about the need for personal responsibility...

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Its not the same as racism at all. This is about same-sex versus opposite-sex couples - as in the natural way vs adoption into a gay partnership. Colour of skin is different, completely.

We are not on the side of the bully here. Just arguing that it is important the child has the best chance of success.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

Its not the same as racism at all. This is about same-sex versus opposite-sex couples - as in the natural way vs adoption into a gay partnership. Colour of skin is different, completely.

We are not on the side of the bully here. Just arguing that it is important the child has the best chance of success.

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To avoid an outburst - can I clarify the natural way - you are alluding to childbirth with that I assume?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

To avoid an outburst - can I clarify the natural way - you are alluding to childbirth with that I assume?

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Yes :)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Not every obese child is picked on, nor every child wearing glasses. But if a child is going to be a target, there are underlying issues that those that bully will pick up on.

I am not casting aspersions on the adoptive parents, but alluding to one of the myriad complications that they face.

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And not every child that lives in an adopted family with same sex parents either?

I find it unacceptable that we should deny a Child a normal happy family life just because of a fear that a Bully could intimidate them. That strikes me as punishing the victim.

Perhaps the reason that this potential bullying might take place is because there has been such discrimination and ignorance of gay and lesbian couples generally. Perhaps the Church refusing to treat people different because of their sexuality would be a huge step in breaking down these unfair barriers. Perhaps one day we might be surprised that this was such a big deal.

Perhaps... we can hope.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I find it unacceptable that we should deny a Child a normal happy family life just because of a fear that a Bully could intimidate them. That strikes me as punishing the victim..

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I quite agree. But the fact that a child finds him/herself in a position to be adopted suggests that already, this notion of a happy family has been taken away.

However, I take issue that you suggest anyone is denying a same sex couple be allowed to adopt. I just don't agree with it (as I don't agree with a church marriage as also discussed previously) because of the fundamental issues and hurdles that are thrown in the way, on top of the upheaval of being (in the position of) adopted in the first place.

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bezza

It is to be expected, as kids will pick on children they see as vulnerable. Now you would say thats the parents fault. But 30 children in a class, and 1 has two fathers - once the kids get to the age where they "sort of" understand this, then they will have a field day. And no amount of parental guidance will stop this. Kids pick on kids already, why would this be any different? However, by allowing same-sex adoption - you are creating another option for bullying, so for the good of the child same-sex adoption cases should be looked at carefully. Men/women couples should be given preference (quality pertaining of course, but this veto process is done anyway) - as this will give the child the BEST chance of success.

I hate to use the term "survival of the fittest" but school really is like that, I've been through it!



How does it cast doubt on his parenting skills? What ARE you on about?! Are you suggesting that he should want his children to be homosexual so that they can be be "different" and "individual"? I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here.

Sounds like SGWilko is doing a good job of being a father. If many same-sex couples have the attitude of you, BDunnell, I doubt they would be brought up correctly - as you are too bitter towards people of differing opinions, and that would impact upon the children.

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All nonsense, as I would expect from you. Your first paragraph is especially absurd. Bullying is no-one's fault other than the bully's. As a right-winger, I presume you believe in people taking personal responsibility? Well, why not apply it in this case?

I resent being told by someone whose opinions I consider ill-developed that my sexuality alone renders me inferior at anything.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

And not every child that lives in an adopted family with same sex parents either?

I find it unacceptable that we should deny a Child a normal happy family life just because of a fear that a Bully could intimidate them. That strikes me as punishing the victim.

Perhaps the reason that this potential bullying might take place is because there has been such discrimination and ignorance of gay and lesbian couples generally. Perhaps the Church refusing to treat people different because of their sexuality would be a huge step in breaking down these unfair barriers. Perhaps one day we might be surprised that this was such a big deal.

Perhaps... we can hope.

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I couldn't agree more. The backward, unenlightened thinking that accompanies this topic is unsurprising to some extent, but largely just saddening.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I quite agree. But the fact that a child finds him/herself in a position to be adopted suggests that already, this notion of a happy family has been taken away.

However, I take issue that you suggest anyone is denying a same sex couple be allowed to adopt. I just don't agree with it (as I don't agree with a church marriage as also discussed previously) because of the fundamental issues and hurdles that are thrown in the way, on top of the upheaval of being (in the position of) adopted in the first place.

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Sorry, it wasn't designed to be an insult or insinuation and I apologise if it came across as such.

Personally, I agree with the main thrust of your point. If all other conditions are identical, it is better for the Child, IMHO, to grow up with both a positive male and a female role model. That is not any sort of slight to same sex partners but I feel that it is less complicated for the child, as you have said, and also a male and female bring different strengths and benefits to a childs development. This is looking purely from the childs side.

However, as I have said, there are thousands of Children out there that can be adopted or fostered and it is better to have a loving household for them to go to rather than worry about the sexuality of the parents.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Yes, there aren't many other rights similarly denied — or any, come to think of it. It is somewhat infuriating that this particular right is denied on the basis of meaningless, semantic arguments relating to the Bible and suchlike, given that same-sex marriage would have no practical consequences whatsoever. As I said earlier, laws should only be made for practical reasons. This is not the case with the ban on same-sex marriage.

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Infuriating.....
But as far as I remember you ( and most of the fellow forumers ) don't believe in God.
Then where this anger come from? And then why should do 2 people ( homo or hetero ) marry at all?

P.S. I reckon my english is poor and I understand you're a sort of master of the words. I might me confusing the meaning of two words: marriage and wedding. In my mind marriage can be civil or/and religious, wedding is only in front of God.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Sorry, it wasn't designed to be an insult or insinuation and I apologise if it came across as such.

Personally, I agree with the main thrust of your point. If all other conditions are identical, it is better for the Child, IMHO, to grow up with both a positive male and a female role model. That is not any sort of slight to same sex partners but I feel that it is less complicated for the child, as you have said, and also a male and female bring different strengths and benefits to a childs development. This is looking purely from the childs side.

However, as I have said, there are thousands of Children out there that can be adopted or fostered and it is better to have a loving household for them to go to rather than worry about the sexuality of the parents.

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Hey Knockie, panic ye not, for that was more to enforce my own viewpoint, for those that struggle with it - you have no need to apologise as you have not insulted anyone, let alone me.

But the last sentence of your second paragraph is the bit that I think gets lost, and some have not and do not wish, to consider - i.e. how does all this affect the child. Sometimes I think there are some that get too wrapped up in their own selfish need for a notion of equality that has the potential to steamroller roughshod over the needs of the child(ren).

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Infuriating.....
But as far as I remember you ( and most of the fellow forumers ) don't believe in God.
Then where this anger come from? And then why should do 2 people ( homo or hetero ) marry at all?

P.S. I reckon my english is poor and I understand you're a sort of master of the words. I might me confusing the meaning of two words: marriage and wedding. In my mind marriage can be civil or/and religious, wedding is only in front of God.

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Well, I only speak English, and I completely understood your post.

Interesting the way most of you see the kids issue....
As if a kid might be affected only because the other kids would bully him and he has no his own needs and desires. That sometimes might don't match the idea of 2 parents of same sex.


Also interesting that when we debated the religion topics some of you say that a kid shouldn't be raised in a certain religion but be left to grow up and choose what suites him.
Isn't the same possibility that a kid raised by a same sex couple couldn't be happy with this alternative?

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

However, as I have said, there are thousands of Children out there that can be adopted or fostered and it is better to have a loving household for them to go to rather than worry about the sexuality of the parents.

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Death of parents excepted, why are there so many unwanted children. There is a serious education issue here IMO.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Also interesting that when we debated the religion topics some of you say that a kid shouldn't be raised in a certain religion but be left to grow up and choose what suites him.
Isn't the same possibility that a kid raised by a same sex couple couldn't be happy with this alternative?

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Religion is a choice, or it should be. Can you chose your parents? For a child that has been abandoned, someone is chosing the parents for them. That can only ever be the equivalent of 'making the best of a bad job' IMO.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Religion is a choice, or it should be. Can you chose your parents? For a child that has been abandoned, someone is chosing the parents for them. That can only ever be the equivalent of 'making the best of a bad job' IMO.

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It's considered a choice only if you're an atheist.
Speaking of parents, we definitely can't chose biological parents.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Speaking of parents, we definitely can't chose biological parents.

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Not all couples (who could be biological parents) are suitable to have children.

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Originally Posted by henners88

This thread seems to address a more male angle, but what do you guys think of two lesbians adopting? Is that different because it would be like two mums and perhaps the male influence isn't as important?

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From the childs perspective, I see two males bringing up a female an issue, and I've alluded to why, IMO, earlier.

I see it less of an issue for two women to bring up either a boy or a girl. I am unable at this point to articulate why. That is just the way I see it.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Not all couples (who could be biological parents) are suitable to have children.

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That's true. But it's a fatality, you can't reject your biological parents on the principle that "you can't turn the blood into water". I have a few members of my family which sometimes get on my nerves but I still love them and forgive their mistakes as we have the same roots.
On the other hand all those who support adoption by couples of same sex come with the reason of assuring a loving and caring background as if that minority can't have its own bad guys.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

That's true. But it's a fatality, you can't reject your biological parents on the principle that "you can't turn the blood into water". I have a few members of my family which sometimes get on my nerves but I still love them and forgive their mistakes as we have the same roots.
On the other hand all those who support adoption by couples of same sex come with the reason of assuring a loving and caring background as if that minority can't have its own bad guys.

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I know of a married couple, the women of which I used to work with, who adopted. They gave the child back because they could not get on!

Seriously, how do you think that made the child feel?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

All nonsense, as I would expect from you. Your first paragraph is especially absurd. Bullying is no-one's fault other than the bully's. As a right-winger, I presume you believe in people taking personal responsibility? Well, why not apply it in this case?

I resent being told by someone whose opinions I consider ill-developed that my sexuality alone renders me inferior at anything.

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You are now struggling to discuss this properly. More personal jibes, and you are trying to bring politics into it again, as if a conversation five years ago has relevance here?!

People of course should take personal responsbility. Either you've not understood my point, or you've chosen to ignore it. It is quite simple really and I'm not repeating it again.

It is not about your sexuality, stop trying to make exaggerate everything. This is simply about my argument that a mother/father parenthood is better than a mother/mother or father/father one.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Well I don't agree with you, but haven't really got anything else to add myself. This is just one of those things neither of us will be able to see from the others perspective.

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At least we are not dull and 'samey'. There clearly is not a right and wrong answer.

And to change one's opinion because someone does not agree with you would be a tad shallow.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I couldn't agree more. The backward, unenlightened thinking that accompanies this topic is unsurprising to some extent, but largely just saddening.

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Backward? You really have a bad choice in insults sometimes.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Children naturally look for influence in adults and if a female or male presence isn't there, then it will be sort..

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I'm not sure things are so easy.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Lets not forget influence doesn't just end at the parents, most people have family members that help where children are involved. Not always I know. ..

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But as the say "mum is the only one". :laugh:
Family helps but it's not enough. In my country a lot of children are living the drama of having parents working abroad and they're left with grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. who love them and take care of them but can't replace their presence. A lot of suicides have happened from missing them.

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Originally Posted by henners88

This thread seems to address a more male angle, but what do you guys think of two lesbians adopting? Is that different because it would be like two mums and perhaps the male influence isn't as important? I know from experience when my wife was pregnant that very little thought goes in to helping the man during pregnancy, and opinions seem to be old fashioned even in the modern NHS.

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After my father’s death nothing was the same. Even if in his last years he was ill and helpless I still felt a stability and security. I suppose these were the things that a man usually brings ( or should bring ) in a family. Unfortunately although my mother is a brave woman she and the rest of family couldn’t ever replace his role.
Of course I survived but always felt the family is incomplete.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

After my father’s death nothing was the same. Even if in his last years he was ill and helpless I still felt a stability and security. I suppose these were the things that a man usually brings ( or should bring ) in a family. Unfortunately although my mother is a brave woman she and the rest of family couldn’t ever replace his role.
Of course I survived but always felt the family is incomplete.

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I am sorry to learn of your experience.

Imagine how the child who loses both parents is then put with foster parents. It will be hard enough to adjust if you have been used to a mum and a dad - how might you feel in a same sex parent family?

I am not saying it is wrong per se, I just think that, for the child, it's hard enough as it is.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I know of a married couple, the women of which I used to work with, who adopted. They gave the child back because they could not get on!

Seriously, how do you think that made the child feel?

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What's the point? I spoke of biological parents. Adoptions are always a sort of lottery and to be honest I'm not a fan of them.


P.S. Who couldn't get on? The couple between them or the couple with the child?

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

What's the point? I spoke of biological parents. Adoptions are always a sort of lottery and to be honest I'm not a fan of them.


P.S. Who couldn't get on? The couple between them or the couple with the child?

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The couple and the child. For me, I'd say the couple were not trying hard enough, but that is just an assumption.

I am sure the child was difficult, but that is to be expected isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Bezza

Backward? You really have a bad choice in insults sometimes.

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It is backward — as in looking backward.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Why would the other kids know that a kid has two dads?
Most of my colleagues in school never knew who my parents were.
This is not as obvious as being fat or wearing glasses

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Did you never invite your mates round for tea?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Should the bible be changed?

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That implies the Bible is a fixed point, existing as a ready formed single document and unchanging through the ages, which clearly isn't correct. Like anything, it has changed to reflect the times it finds itself operating in. More often than not to enhance or preserve the power of those changing it, but that's another debate. I don't see people denouncing those with tattoos, yet that's right there in Leviticus. When I walk past my local church on a Sunday, I don't see anyone taking up serpents. Likewise, I don't know of anyone who keeps a slave, yet both are advocated in the Bible. People modify their interpretations depending on the society of the time. The change in social attitudes towards homosexuality is simply the latest manifestation of that process. To be honest, the religious aspect to the debate is a bit of a red herring anyway. The main issue is simply that homosexual couples should be afforded the same recognition in law as heterosexual couples. You don't have gay driving licences or gay passports, so why have specifically gay marriages in the form of civil partnerships? That's not equality, it's highlighting difference.

My son has been exposed to school mates with 2 moms and 2 dads since he was very young.

It is natural for him.

Our son was adopted (my sunshine) and he has a mother and a father - the male and female influence which I believe to be the best scenario for a child.

And I say this totally approving the adoption for same sex couples which I'm sure will give the child all the love they can muster.

Just the fact that I prefer a child to have both a mom and a dad does in NO WAY demean the 2 dads or 2 mom scenarios. As a matter of fact, I celebrate them.

I also celebrate fatherhood. It's been the best and currently the toughest experience (teenager) in my life.
:)

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

My son has been exposed to school mates with 2 moms and 2 dads since he was very young.

It is natural for him.

Our son was adopted (my sunshine) and he has a mother and a father - the male and female influence which I believe to be the best scenario for a child.

And I say this totally approving the adoption for same sex couples which I'm sure will give the child all the love they can muster.

Just the fact that I prefer a child to have both a mom and a dad does in NO WAY demean the 2 dads or 2 mom scenarios. As a matter of fact, I celebrate them.

I also celebrate fatherhood. It's been the best and currently the toughest experience (teenager) in my life.
:)

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Excellent post, if I may say so.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And underlying all of this is the same important point: that law should always be made on the basis of practical effect, and in this case the ban on gay marriage has none.

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But maybe on a divine level things are different....
Spirituality isn't necessarily related to practical effects.
Civil marriages can be ( and in time maybe they will be everywhere ) legalised by a human authority but nobody can impose a gay wedding to the clergy. In religion we don't have laws but dogmas.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

nobody can impose a gay wedding to the clergy

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Nobody is trying to impose a gay wedding on the clergy. I think (not sure) it's quite the opposite: the (human) law explicitely forbids gay marriage in the Church of England.
It's as if the law were also to forbid woman catholic priests, for example. Why make a (human) law for it ? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Interesting the way most of you see the kids issue....
As if a kid might be affected only because the other kids would bully him and he has no his own needs and desires. That sometimes might don't match the idea of 2 parents of same sex.


Also interesting that when we debated the religion topics some of you say that a kid shouldn't be raised in a certain religion but be left to grow up and choose what suites him.
Isn't the same possibility that a kid raised by a same sex couple couldn't be happy with this alternative?

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Absolute rubbish, absurd comparisons like always.