Yeah. Something like this. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
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Yeah. Something like this. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
So, after 244 posts, has anyone modified their opinions at all and why?
Non-believers (or realists as I like to call us) cannot understand why people are so gullible to believe there is some mystical, all seeing deity that invented Heaven, Earth and Hell. He can listen to each and every one of the 6 billion human beings prayers, thoughts, desires and judge each and everyone of us when we die to decide whether they are worthy to enter his kingdom or should spend the rest of eternity being tortured.
Then we have the believers who believe without doubt that the above is true and wont entertain any 'evidence' that contradicts their 'faith'.
Heaven and hell, good and bad, black and white, believers and non-believers. Both sides of the same coin that are no more likely to change sides as they are sexes.
Perhaps we shall need a new thread called 'Converts coner'?
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-20...e-1280x960.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Eki, you have issues mate. Serious issues.
And look at the way some churches seek to retain their societal position — by speaking out from an utterly backward standpoint on issues like gay marriage, for instance. Even representatives of the more moderate branches of the Christian faith talk of the rise of secularism as though it is something to be feared, rather than acknowledging the ways in which it may simply be inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
You really think that average people are that dumb that they do not understand some basics? Maybe I grew up in a world of geniuses, where everyone was above average, though I highly doubt it, and yet everyone understands the basics of how an engine works without need to take up physics or engineering classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
As for the air, well it is oxygen not air that the engine uses, and we should consider ourselves lucky that we do not have to fill the engine with air from an air station pump.
Looks like they knew better.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
And does it work?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
Couldn't agree more. Very well explained. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
Because we are born with gray matter between our ears? Some more some less, but yet it is there to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
:rotflmao: Made my day!Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
BTW, all valid reasons! ;)
I watched a geeky documentary on TV a while back, asking what made the universe, is it made up of a boat load of coincidences/was there a god that made it/somethint totally different etc.
In the beginning, before the Greeks started to discover astronomy, the Vikings used to blame some sort of "wolf god" or something when ever there was an eclipse of the sun. They thought this god would take away all of the sun light and the earth couldnt function without it. Apparently back then, the Vikings attempted to drive away this evil god in the only way they knew how....By drawing their swords and shouting at it...And what happens?? The sun suddenly comes back, and the Vikings pat themselves on the back, a job well done, they've scared this God away! Or so they thought.
Then someone discovered that it was actually simply the moon blocking the sunlight out momentarily, and there was actually no such thing as the wolf god.
Further down the time line, the romans I think thought a god created the sun. Now we know that the sun started the same way as all of the other stars in the universe.
More recently, Einstein discovers anti-matter, we have the Hubble telescope that can (in a sense) peer back in time, etc etc.
The point I'm trying to make is that for every thing that is unexplained (the big bang, for example) religious people just presume that a god must have caused it. And as we have learned more of the origins of our planet, the sun, solar system, etc etc the less we presume a god made everything.
We still have a lot to learn about our existence, and it seems the more we learn, the less we need to believe that a god created us.
It was a pretty good TV programme :)
Indeed. I believe it's called "God of the gaps". Whatever we don't understand is attributed to God; all the gaps in our knowledge. And as we know more and more, God's domain gets smaller and smaller.Quote:
Originally Posted by tfp
I see, your opinion is that our grey matter is able to find reasons for everything. More or less scientific, more or less true.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Don't know about you but as far as I'm concerned I was also born with that part of spiritual substance called soul. This is immaterial and has its own "needs" . It's also there ( to be honest I don't know where ). Now can you tell me the reason why I have it and what I have to do with it?
I'm sure that using your gray matter you'll be able to enlighten me.
Although I believe there's a God I'm not exactly the kind of believer you described above. I'm not bothered by issues like the true/false existance of Heaven/Hell, the evidence of them or the entrance in His kingdom. I don't take these terms mot-a mot. The unbelivers say that religions are founded on man's incapacity to explain phenomena. Maybe the sacred texts were also written with man's incapacity to explain what happens on a divine level.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Don't know the purpose of this thread but definitely it wasn't a mean to change our opinions. It's hard for a believer to be convinced that man is but a poor rational and talking animal, coming from nowhere, going to nowhere - same thing for the genius and the idiot. He's rather interested in when, where and for what purpose the quality of "human" appeared.
But it's interesting these kind of threads always appear near Easter/Christmas. Wonder why.....
The purpose of this thread was twofold:Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
1) I thought it would be interesting to survey our forumers' spiritual beliefs.
2) Just an interesting discussion topic. It's fun to argue. ;)
Nothing to do with Easter, though.
Oh, and I'm very glad we've been able to keep it civil so far. :up: I guess Knock-on will have to change his ways and become a believer... in our capacity to hold a good discussion.
Just a little confused here mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
you believe in a God but not a Religion? Is that correct?
If not, what religion do you believe in and why can you cherry pick what bits apply to you and what bits don't. I'm not trying to be flippant but really am struggling to understand this belief thing. I thought you were a believer or not.
:confused:
Soul is a very different thing to religious faith. One can have soul and not have religious faith. I do not consider it a spiritual thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
While I applaud your sense of individuality concerning your beliefs, I wonder from this why you consider yourself a believer at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
I'm an orthodox christian like most people in Eastern Europe. That's why I said before it's interesting to know the country/rite of those who believe in God ( already noticed 2 other guys who live in the same part of the world and they must be orthodox too ).
I'm very comfortable with my religion because I don't feel any constraint from my church and I can't find anything wrong in its teachings. The way I perceive the relationship with my religion is something like this:
It doesn't offer prescriptions but directions to follow. You're offered a steady landmark and you're free to go to it on your own way. You have a model and a liturgical support.
I don't pray anymore and don't go to church ( except for weddings, funerals, commemorations and for Easter night ), you'll never find me on the queue to saints' relics. Not because I've lost interest in my faith but cos a sort of convenience due to my stressful life.
I haven't read the bible, it was a forbiden book when I was very young. Maybe that's the reason I don't ask many questions about its episodes. The religious side of my life is limited to respecting the tradition. In fact the orthodox calendar is a long chain of saints/events celebrations, many of them associated with rites of pagan origin. I love these traditions although if you ask me I can't find the reason to follow them ( I'm not even interested to find one ). Could be a result of my education. I was taught to avoid doing choir work on certain holy days, to fast before Christmas or Easter, to dye eggs on Easter, I take willow branches on the sunday of flowers, I take holy water on 6 January, on 9 March I do a traditional dish( but never been able to drink the 40 glasses of an alchoholic drink:laugh :) , I don't wash my hair on the day of Christ's baptizing, etc.. And I admit that when I was very young I even did witchcrafts on St Andrew and on Christ's baptizing. Of course sometimes I'm not able to do these but I don't feel guilty at all. And neither my church would throw a damnation over my head. When I do such things I do them because I feel it's right not because a place in Heaven would be reserved for me.
I know you can't understand this. I don't feel I have much things in common with people around me except for having same traditions.
I'm sure that if I was born in a country of protestant christian rite I would have become an atheist. The preachers always seem to threaten people and I can't find anything magic in their church.
To be honest whenever I go to an orthodox church I propose to be attentive at what the priest is saying. But the surmon is a long chain of incantations and I can't concentrate on priest's words. What is weird is that always I remember the same passages from the surmon like someone is waking me up at that moment .
As a teenager I used to be the mystical type. Due to the communist regime, any possibility to get information about horoscopes, reincarnation, life after death, communication with dead people, etc. was nule. I still have interest in such things although my religion denies them. And I reckon I used to be quite a good fortune teller. :laugh:
I do. Anyway, my point was opposed to Ioan's opinion that everything has a reason because people have the grey matter .Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
At this point I have to admit that my grey matter consists of one single neuron. And I'm afraid even this one is sick. :laugh:
Can't explain this, it's more of a feeling. Maybe because I look around and I see only imperfect human beings while the Universe is lead by perfect laws.:laughs:Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
For me, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Fair enough! But do you not also consider that some of those imperfect human beings are themselves believers?Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
You got me wrong there. The grey matter is not able to find reasons for everything, it is there for reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
My 'soul' has also it needs, it needs knowledge, lots of it, and it needs to be productive. It thrives on and it derives pleasure from coming up with ideas, from solving problems, from creating something out of knowledge.
I hope I answered your question.
Only if you include Russia as part of Eastern Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
At least we settled this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
Very good, ioan.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
How do you guys interpret "the soul"?
Is this a religious only concept?
Sent from my iPhone as I watch the UEFA cup. :)
Definitely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
What is "the soul" then?
** you beat me to it Studiose . . . I was trying to follow BDunnell's post.
Sent from my iPhone as I watch the UEFA cup. :)
That's a good question, race.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
When I think of the word "soul", I think of the word "immortal". It's the essence of man that is independent of his body and mind. To me, the term associates with religion and belief in the creator and the afterlife. The thing is, I don't believe anything about me to be immortal, I think I was created by my parents, and I don't believe in the afterlife. So it follows that I don't believe I have a soul. I have body and mind, but nothing else.
In short, I think there's no such thing.
Interesting. I just view soul as a non-religious word, so for me it has no connotations that prevent me from thinking that people have one. That said, to me it is an extremely nebulous concept — I would describe someone as being 'soulless' without giving a moment's thought to it, yet could just as easily substitute another term.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
It makes sense that "the soul" can mean something different to different people. Epistemology in action.
Sent from my iPhone as I watch the UEFA cup. :)
"human being" = "body" (material) + "soul" (immaterial).
the soul isn't put there by some god or holy spirit but is simply the image of your "self", generated by your functioning brain.
body without soul = vegetable
that's how donkeys work anyway :)
Given that we're not entirely sure of what things like gravity or mass actually are, describing the soul might be something equally as difficult to empirically prove.
I don't think that we have the ability to even perceive anymore than about 5 dimensions. Certainly in my experience, time is a linear thing that only appears to flow in one direction and as time-travel isn't yet a reality, I don't know if we've managed to fold space-time through the sixth dimension yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
"Where" a being would get its morality from would be a very strange question to even consider in say the tenth dimension which would encompass all infinities and all possibilities. I'm not surprised that Mr Brown found the explanation/argument inadequate and to be totally frank I can't provide an adequate explanation/argument either if it's going to preside in the tenth dimension which is beyond the limits of our perception anyway.
What if mass, energy, gravity, or even the soul/spirit etc. is bound in a model parallel to the ten dimension model of space-time? Again I don't know how you'd empirically prove such a statement if it presides in a similar tenth dimension.
To my knowledge the countries with orthodox majority are Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Serbia, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Montenegro, Macedonia, Georgia.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I think people have different criteria to see the continent. I don't divide it only in north-south, eastern-western. I take also into account the central part. Which is mostly catholic.
Excuse me but it's early in the morning and I'm not in the mood for reasoning. I asked "Why should be a reason for everything?" and you amswered "Because we are born with gray matter between our ears? Some more some less, but yet it is there to use it. ". Then I mentioned the element "soul" because I reckon sometimes I tend to reason with my "heart"-if you know what I mean. If I got you wrong then so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Never thought your body hides the soul of a president of a multinational corporation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Just kidding. :laugh:
Now seriously: obviously you can't ever become religious as your soul is tight only to the material and physical world and your principles are too material. I'd rather think that for your needs rationality is enough. I understand your soul is thirsty of knowledge but what happens with the feelings? More knowledge will help you to become a better man? And I'm afraid that following your soul desires you might be able to find what happen in the entire Universe or if life exists on Sirius but you'll never know the cause of life, why and for what purpose we exist. Something like:
Who are we?
Where do we come from?
Where are we going to?
Yes. Thank you. But could you satisfy another of my (sick) curiosity?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Were you raised in greek-catholic or protestant surroundings?