Can't believe people are whining about Drs. Do they prefer processions?
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Can't believe people are whining about Drs. Do they prefer processions?
No, but we don't like to see cars flying past others that have got absolutely no chance of defending. That is not racing. They need to sort out the aero problems in F1, not try and compensate for them with sh!tty systems like DRS. DRS is just so.....fake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
So they got it wrong in turkey. Why don't you go play on your ps3 online rather than whining about it on here? Oh wait that's right..... :D
Hehehe.....luckily, I don't play online and prefer to just play on my own or with my son :) I am what you can call safe :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
No, I prefer racing. Always have. DRS does't promote racing, it creates passing where the car ahead is a "sitting duck" unable to defend the pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
We didn't have DRS last year and yet there were exciting races.
DRS doesn't fix the problem which, for whatever reason, the FIA is unable or unwilling to address which is the fundamental design of the cars which prevents them from racing closely. Perhaps the teams are unwilling to reduce their aero investment. Perhaps sponsors like the multiple wing elements and barge-boards. Who knows.
As it has turned out the three 'new' elements - DRS, KERS & Pirelli tyres - are at least one too many. IMHO the tyres are having a far greater influence on the races than anything else.
I agree that Drs was a bit much in turkey. But Drs as a whole is a step forward.
How is the DRS a step forward?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Its not a step forward in engine technology or horsepower.
Its not a step forward in aerodynamics.
Its not a step forward in drive train or suspension or steering.
The DRS in itself is a step backward in that it provides an uneven playing field during the race based on track position. Weight handicapping could be another way to make the field "uneven". Would you consider weight handicaps in the race to be a step forward?
I have been an advocate of weight based handicapping in the past but only in qualifying. That position has essentially been made mute by the tyres this year.
The DRS actually has a hint of desperation about it in that F1 gives the appearance of wanting to do absolutely anything to increase overtaking. Unfortunately, seeing F1 cars flying past other F1 cars is not enjoyable for anybody.
If they continue with the DRS they need to consider dynamically adjusting the zone based on prevailing conditions during the race and limit the number of times the DRS can be used per pit interval.
I can offer you one step forward off the top of my head. We have seen the fastest EVER laps at the last two venues, despite massive reductions in downforce and engine power since they were set. DRS is directly responsible for this step forward in pace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
Did DRS sleep with your girlfriend or something? You seem to have this obsession with making slightly irrelevant points regarding it is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
The days of F1 being some sort of testbed for roadcars is over, this may have been true in the days where roadcar developement/design was done in a more primitive way, but not anymore. Porsche are using KERS for the 918 Spyder, but this will never happen for everyday roadcars and therefore F1 is not financially worthwhile competing in if you're wanting to develop technology for your roadcars.
I think if we were seeing driver x pass driver y then driver x retook him in the drs zone and then this being repeated ad nauseum then we could say DRS is a complete failure, but this isn't happening. All we're seeing is drivers who are faster than other drivers being able to get past a little too easily. With more experience of DRS, we'll see things get a bit better.
Anyone who thought that F1 was fine before the FIA tried to do something about the lack of overtaking has clearly been dropped on their head an odd number of times. Was DRS overdone in Turkey? Probably, has it been proven to be a failure on all tracks? No.....
I sometimes think she feels I could do with a performance boost... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
As far as irrelevant points go I merely disagreed with your comment about it being an improvement. Its a slippery slope when the entertainment becomes more important than the racing.
I disagree. F1, in fact motorsport in general, has always been an idea's factory with the best ideas being adopted by the commercial market. KERS is the example you use. KERS and specifically fly-wheels are being tested extensively in the long-haul trucking industry with double digit percentage reductions in fuel usage being realised. Its appropriate that F1 engineers be tasked with that techical challenge. It advances mankind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Now the rules surrounding KERS I believe they got those wrong in that it was a "push to pass" item and that is the same with the DRS. Its "push to pass" and I don't believe that is the way for F1 to move forward.
Faster drivers getting past slower drivers easier begs the question as to how they got behind them in the first place. Why should a faster driver be able to get past a slower driver easier?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
There is no doubt that an F1 car has a huge advantage when leading and there have been many changes made in the past few years with this in mind. Personally I don't see much of a problem in F1 as the races do pretty much finish in the order expected.
I don't think that the DRS will ever lend itself to "experience" making it better. Track/weather conditions is making it difficult to decide on the optimal positioning of the zone during a race weekend and technology changes from year to year may see most races in the future being affected negatively by the DRS if its adoption becomes permanent.
You're new to this F1 thing aren't you? Sometimes when a faster driver pits, he sometimes comes out on the track behind a slower driver. Hope that's not too complicated for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
Why should a faster driver be able to get past a slower driver? Ummmm, well.... are you really asking this question? Whilst in Turkey it was too easy for faster drivers to get past, in the past you had to be stupidly quicker than the driver in front to get past and even then it was difficult. Some of the people on here seem to want to go back to the days where you had an overtake or two to talk about per half a season. That was boring, what we need is a happy medium. The FIA did something to make overtaking easier (which pretty much everyone asked for) and people are whinging about it not being perfect after a few races. Give it time and F1 will be better for it.
There are great F1 fans, about 5 to 10% of the whole IMO. The rest... :\Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
Yes processions, with lots of racing and no overtaking would be much better than highway passing, heck any of us could overtake like that.
F1 is not about racing, it's about making money, lots of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
And naturally, the people on the board go to make up that 5% ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
DRS is to F1 exactly what push to pass is for IRL.
This just shows how low F1 already got and still digging.
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
Doubt it. Most of us would shunt within a second.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Dude, never change!
Because he's better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
You mean they can't? Well then tough luck they should take some lessons from Kobayashi or Hamilton.
C'mon, I thought you were part of those 5%. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
So the sort of racing where you could watch the start, see the order after the first round of stops and then come back for the champagne and know the results is what we want?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Some of you guys seem like the sort of "connoisseurs" who could sniff, swill and spit out a glass of piss that had been dyed red to look like wine and comment on its fruity aroma, full bodied taste and tart aftertase on the tongue. F1 sucked most of the time other than when it was wet and the fact that the FIA felt the need to do something about it backs that up.
If they fight for places I don't care if the order changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
How the heck can people be so superficial and chose form over substance? :rolleyes:
I said most ;) I'd be fine. Better than fine. Awesome. Legendary even.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
The fights were largely stacked in favour of the driver in front though. Personally I prefer the way things are now where qualifying isn't quite as important as before and managing your tyres is more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Agreed. For the first time in a long time if a driver is catching another they stand a very good chance of getting by.
I think it was a bit too easy in Turkey.
Wouldn't you MUCH prefer it to be more or less impossible for a driver to get by and to almost need to risk an accident each overtake? That's muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
I'm being sarcastic btw.
Yes? No? What was the question?
Are you a connoiseur who longs for the old days of racing and is willing to criticise the sport when it tries to bring racing back?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Racing is not about catching someone it's about getting by. I suggest rally for those who don't care about racing as racing is defined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Not only sarcastic....Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Do you honestly prefer what we had before where a much better driver could be held behind by a far slower driver purely because of the way the aero works?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
It reminds me a bit of the Hanford device they used in CART on the super speedways for a few years. The device was used to create drag to slow the cars but it also created a huge hole in the air for the following car and it wasn't long before a similarly fast car would be able to draft by it. "Draft" doesn't really describe the huge slipstream effect it had. The referred to it as slingshot drafting as the tailing car appeared to have a JATO attached to it as it blew by the leading car. All cars had it and there was no switch to turn it on or off. It made the race a pretty exciting affair as lead changes took place almost every lap it seems. But, it was kind of a guilty pleasure for me. It was kind of like watching a high scoring hockey game with no goalie in the net. The team who had the puck last was likely to be the team that won. Sure the drivers had to be fast but the outcome was almost like something they had little control over.
That never happened. A driver was kept behind because the slower drive in front had good defending skills or the one behind had less overtaking skills then what was needed, it was not only up to aero, and many drivers demonstrated that it is possible to overtake if you do it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Just think about Webber and Heidfeld against Alonso back in Monaco (2005?) where Webber was tooling around behind Alonso's Renault for endless laps, than Heidfeld in the very same car overtook Alonso at the 2nd attempt. Driver skill came into play there and that is what I want to see in racing.
I think what we want to see is a middle ground. A little bit of DRS to purely overcome the whole turbulence issue would be nice, I don't want DRS doing 100% of the work for the driver :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I've been a spectator in the crowd to watch Prost, Senna, Mansell etc. so don't see myself as "New to this F1 thing...".Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Yep, that's exactly the question I'm asking.
It was too easy for faster drivers in Turkey because they got the DRS zone wrong. I would argue that they will get it wrong more often than right unless they dynamically adjust it throughout the race. Changing track conditions mean that the effectiveness of the DRS may always be changing. We haven't had a really wet race yet and the DRS could be a whole new animal during a race that starts wet and ends dry. In fact they may have been expecting rain in Turkey and that was why the DRS zone was so early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
As to "stupidly quicker" in the past I don't believe that has ever been the case in any motorsport. The "problem", if there is one, is explosive acceleration, traction and driver reflexes. The "solution" may be found in tools to address those three. The DRS addresses none of them as it makes cars "stupidly quicker" and that is why it is wrong.
Traction control, active suspension or myriad other mystery tricks coupled with the "one second" rule could overcome the acceleration and traction issue and driver skill will finish the job. At least this approach allows the lead driver some hope of defending the track position he has earned. As you say, it was too easy in Turkey...
^^^
So just to clarify, you are against DRS, but not some other form of 'artificial' engineering solution to permit the following vehicle an opportunity to pass?
(not being sarcastic - truly interested).
Don't know about Whyzars standing on this, but I want to see a move away from modern F1 cars aero reliance to more emphasis on mechanical grip, which will automatically make it easier to pass. That's how it used to be, until Williams started with their wind tunnel testing and car designs that changed F1 from mechanical grip to aero reliance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
Thanks for that quite frankly nonsensical post. So basically it seems like DRS did sleep with your wife/girlfriend :mark:Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
You have fail dismally to actually prove that there is something inherently wrong with DRS, merely the way it was executed in Turkey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
I think that's what everyone wants. I don't think that having aero is inherently good in terms of spectacle and I think if the cars can be kept rougly as fast (and safe) without it then all the better. Wider tyrs and active suspension would make for much racier cars IMHO. I still think DRS is a step in the right direction if aero is going to be kept, it just needs some tweaking.