Will SchM succeed in his comeback?

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Originally Posted by eu

Didn't Wurz say Brawn's car was probably the most expensive one ever built in f1? That they've started working very early on it? That they've used up to 3 tunnels? That they've spent quite a lot of money before Honda decided to retire?

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Isn't that the point? Now Honda are gone, so is the resource and gobfuls of cash. Brawn/MGP are a smaller team now, or certainly were until the Merc tie up.

I am sure they will come good in time.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Gosh!! After winning the WDC one year, now after just one race, "he don't stand out no more". :(

Oh! ye of little faith. Let the flame shine brightly, let the Bunsen conquer all, so that he standeth from the top of the podium once again!!

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In 2009 driving the Brawn-Ilien V8 he won the championship :D He is one of the best drivers and one of only four world champions on the grid - an elite place indeed.

But who is the best driver in F1 - its Alonso. He IS the Schumacher Slayer! And since 2005 has been the best driver in F1.

I reckon he is the driver most likely to become 2010 world champion.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Yes but thats a totally different year. We are discussing the development of the 2010 car not the 2009. Honda were not funding development for this seasons car. :)

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My bad then. I didn't get what you were saying.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

In 2009 driving the Brawn-Ilien V8 he won the championship :D He is one of the best drivers and one of only four world champions on the grid - an elite place indeed.

But who is the best driver in F1 - its Alonso. He IS the Schumacher Slayer! And since 2005 has been the best driver in F1.

I reckon he is the driver most likely to become 2010 world champion.

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And that's why a rookie kicked his ass, right?

One race, one race, and poor Bunsen is dropped for the guy who had his ass kicked by Lewis Hamilton. Some Poms are real quick to jump ship, aren't they!!

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

You mean aside from Alonso himself?

One name: ALAIN PROST

Hamilton knew that he was Dennis' "boy". Do you recall the "incident" - Hamilton causing problems in the pits in 2007? Hamilton only this year stated that he regretted it.

The proof is there and the history exists - naturally YOU could declare that Prost and Alonso are liars........

It was Ron Dennis' way and especially Alonso, when he left his "home" at Renault he correctly expected to be treated as the Schumacher slayer and twice world champion that he is.

Instead he was the usurper.

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There is no proof, there are only opinions. Alonso has shown himself to be an emotional idiot many times in his career, that time no exception. Prost on the other hand (I dont even know what quotes of him you are referring to, surely you will be able to provide them here) has no access to McLaren and his opinion is worth no more than anyone elses. It is like Eddie jordan saying 1000 things, getting one of them right and then being so proud of that.

Alonso and Hamilton were given equal treatment, that is what bothered Alonso - he wanted to be the clear nr.1 and he actually would have been that if he had been clearly faster than Hamilton, but what happened is that Hamilton proven himself to be marginally faster than Alonso.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

You spin the situation or you really are ignorant about what happens?

Alonso will go with the team strategy unless he reads things differently and as in Japan assumed command of his strategy and won iin a car that was also not supposed to.

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You still have no explained what was so wonderful what he did at Japan, go on explain. What strategical decisions did he make?

As for going with team strategy, the strategy they picked at Singapore was so unbeliveably idiotic that no one sane would accept that as the best strategy. Yet Alonso went with it.

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Mclaren will NOT allow that with Hamilton - the radio communication is always that of Hamilton obeying not commanding.

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Do you have 100% access to McLaren team radio?
Can you provide examples of what you are saying here?

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Fernando Alonso unlike Hamilton has moral courage. He had the courage to stand by his friend Flavio Briatore in the face of all the world.

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Yeah, but the fact remains that Flavios acts were that of a very dishonest person. I would not like to have such friends.

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Spoilt children seldom do.

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You cant get more spoilt that Alonso, the guy who threw tantrums because his teammate was faster than him.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

How many other times have the FIA needed to police a garage to ensure fair play?

How about the mysterious tyre-pressure changes that led to the FIA putting a steward in the Mclaren garage?

How about the fact that Hamilton recieved no meaningful sanction by the team for his actions in Budapest?

Now, obviously a team wouldn't broadcast such underhand tactics to the world, but nevermind that as Mclaren, I keep forgetting, are above such things.

This is Mclaren we are talking about, after all, a by-word for integrity and honesty, certainly not a place were anything untoward would ever happen.

At least it is if, like Henners, you actually haven't been watching F1 these past three years.

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So you have no actual proof. Good.

What sanctions should the team have put on Hamilton for that? Banned him for one race? Yeah, good one.

if you read Jo Ramirez´s book he states clearly that Ron Dennis likes to have a driver he loves as if it were his kid and that the last ones were Senna, Hakkinen and Raikkonen its an old book 2005 or 2006 so lewis isnt mentioned. he also states that honda started clearly favoring Senna giving him the updates first and at some points senna had 30 or so honda guys while prost had 10 to 12

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Originally Posted by ratonmacias

if you read Jo Ramirez´s book he states clearly that Ron Dennis likes to have a driver he loves as if it were his kid and that the last ones were Senna, Hakkinen and Raikkonen its an old book 2005 or 2006 so lewis isnt mentioned. he also states that honda started clearly favoring Senna giving him the updates first and at some points senna had 30 or so honda guys while prost had 10 to 12

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Interesting about the Honda comment. There was, many moons ago, a 30 mins or so program on the box about Senna at McLaren in 1993. This is when they were running the Ford as a customer.

Ayrton went out in the car, came back in, and told the Ford guys there was a strange noise and they must change the engine. They wouldn't have it until he threw a wobbly. They changed the engine, took the old one apart, and found a fault that would have led to a failure.

The man was amazing........

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Interesting about the Honda comment. There was, many moons ago, a 30 mins or so program on the box about Senna at McLaren in 1993. This is when they were running the Ford as a customer.

Ayrton went out in the car, came back in, and told the Ford guys there was a strange noise and they must change the engine. They wouldn't have it until he threw a wobbly. They changed the engine, took the old one apart, and found a fault that would have led to a failure.

The man was amazing........

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And to swing this full circle back to schumi; according to Steady Eddie Irvine MS is extreemly sensitive to engines ans will surely be a great help in developing fuel maps etc that conserve the jungle juice whilst still pumping out 750 odd BHP.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Note quite the clear evidence I was after, but if that's your best shot, tally ho.

Now, liken Hamilton overtaking Alonso in Hungary qually to this little tale;



http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2689

It is called competive nature.

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what a great story is the one of Webber and Nico.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

So you have no actual proof. Good.

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I have all the proof of Mclaren being liars that I need, thanks.

Don't tell me you haven't been watching F1 either these past three years.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

What sanctions should the team have put on Hamilton for that? Banned him for one race? Yeah, good one.

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Well, since kicking the crap out of the little cxxt would have been frowned on, then that would have been a decent option.

By doing feck all, Mclaren confirmed to the world that they believe in underhand behaviour from their favoured son.

And there is plenty of proof of that.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

As for going with team strategy, the strategy they picked at Singapore was so unbeliveably idiotic that no one sane would accept that as the best strategy. Yet Alonso went with it.

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I completely disagree, Alonso's strategy in Singapore made perfect sense if (and only if) he had been told that there would be a safety car the lap he came in for a ridiculously early pitstop.

In other words unless he'd dropped several million IQ points that day he was in on the Piquet job. He's about the only guy in the team aside from his engineer that would have needed to know about it in order to go along with the pitstop strategy.

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Originally Posted by ratonmacias

if you read Jo Ramirez´s book he states clearly that Ron Dennis likes to have a driver he loves as if it were his kid and that the last ones were Senna, Hakkinen and Raikkonen its an old book 2005 or 2006 so lewis isnt mentioned. he also states that honda started clearly favoring Senna giving him the updates first and at some points senna had 30 or so honda guys while prost had 10 to 12

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Regarding Prost and Senna, I believe its no secret that McLaren valued both equally but Honda were utterly in love with Senna. It says a lot that Senna was rung up by Mr Honda himself the day their board decided to pull out of F1, Ron Dennis was told three months later.

Getting out of sequence on a new road course, the first night-race as well, when you are starting at the back of the grid in a fast car (Alonso was on for a top three qualifying until his gearbox went awol) is not as stupid as some would like to believe.

In fact, the only 'idiotic' thing about the strategy is the people who don't understand strategy and claim it was an idiotic strategy.

Roger Penske and Tim Cindric were always willing to play the off-sequence pit strategy in CART, ChampCar and IndyCar.

Selling an unusual strategy to Fernando on the Saturday night/Sunday morning of the Singapore GP would not have been too difficult. A normal strategy was going to do feck all for him anyway.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Getting out of sequence on a new road course, the first night-race as well, when you are starting at the back of the grid in a fast car (Alonso was on for a top three qualifying until his gearbox went awol) is not as stupid as some would like to believe.

In fact, the only 'idiotic' thing about the strategy is the people who don't understand strategy and claim it was an idiotic strategy.

Roger Penske and Tim Cindric were always willing to play the off-sequence pit strategy in CART, ChampCar and IndyCar.

Selling an unusual strategy to Fernando on the Saturday night/Sunday morning of the Singapore GP would not have been too difficult. A normal strategy was going to do feck all for him anyway.

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Yet it is convention that on a track where overtaking was clearly going to be difficult if not impossible, a fast car stuck unnaturally far back would benefit more by being fuelled to the brim and pitting as late as possible.

Even by the standards of short fuelling Alonso was ridiculously short fuelled, there HAD to be a safety car in order for him to not end up being at the back of the pack when the pitstops all sorted themselves out, how convenient that Piquet happened to go out the lap Alonso went in.... How interesting that the investigation of the whole incident didn't want to explore exactly why car number 1 in that team decided to go with that particular strategy....

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Yet it is convention that on a track where overtaking was clearly going to be difficult if not impossible, a fast car stuck unnaturally far back would benefit more by being fuelled to the brim and pitting as late as possible.

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No it wouldn't, as it would be stuck behind slower cars and unable to pass because of its higher fuel load, negating any speed advantage.

At best, Alonso could have hoped for an 8th place with that kind of strategy.

Short-fuelled would mean that the car would be in clean air and no traffic but still on the lead lap, a technique often employed in IndyCar.

It would always need a safety car for the strategy to work, but the chances of a safety car were higher than normal given that it was a street circuit, a night race and a new track.

To that extent, it was a plausible strategy to a driver whose weekend had otherwise just gone down the pan.

That Renault, or rather Flavio, Pat and Piquet, were planning on creating a safety car situation does not mean that it was an implausible strategy without knowledge of the plan.

That's a fair point I suppose but is stretching it a little to think there wasn't a nudge and a wink as well.

"Trust me Alonso, I've checked my Horoscope and it says we will have a safety car around lap 14".

I guess it's all supposition and these things tend to stay buried but the jury is out on exactly what was known to Alonso. All we do know is that one driver and the top top people in the team were rotten cheats of the worse order. At the moment though, we must give Senor Alonso the benefit of the doubt.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'd love to know what you think you see when you watch a grand prix. Its almost as though the last 3 years do not exist. Alonso has not shown the superiority over the likes of Vettel and particularly Hamilton to which you claim here.

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As much as it pains me I have to agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

He has not?

His victory at Suzuka in 2008 was a masterpiece.

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what victory in suzuka?

they were racing in Fuji in 2008 and Alonso was far from spectacular in that race. taking advantage of a first lap fracas that saw the 3 cars who qualified ahead of him involved and then driving an unspectacular race.
hardly a legendary race imo

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Originally Posted by henners88

Alonso is an awesome driver and being a triple WDC he deserves alot of respect, but he is not Jesus Christ. :)

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Either you can't count or he is indeed a miracle worker.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I totally agree and its a credit that they are where they are with limited resources compared with the top 3 teams. Mercedes spent hundreds of millions building facilities at Woking and it took a couple of years before this investment started having an advantage on the team. Brawn collaborated with Merc fairly late last year, so I get the impression the development up until November had been done on a fraction of the budget of say Ferrari and Mclaren.

Schuey has come back and will be an asset as far as input in developing this seasons car, but we may not see the rewards until late into this season. Nobody really expects Schuey to win the championship in his return season, but with so much media hype, I feel this season will be used to get back into the groove, and I just hope he sticks around for a second season. Never in his career has he committed to a 3 year contract, and many feel its just his way of diverting attention later in the year when contracts are the subject on every journalists lips. Fingers crossed he'll be around until he is 44.. :)

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i think Mercedes will invest wisely in the team and I expect an accelerated pace of improvement. over the year. They might not be challenging for the WDC this year but they might be in the hunt for a top 3 WCC and in 2011 with a year of Mercedes control and input, I fully expect that car to be very very competitive.

I still think it will win 1 or 2 races this year of which I think MSC will win one and Nico the other.

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Originally Posted by eu

Didn't Wurz say Brawn's car was probably the most expensive one ever built in f1? That they've started working very early on it? That they've used up to 3 tunnels? That they've spent quite a lot of money before Honda decided to retire?

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I'm pretty sure Honda were not simultaneously building a 2009 and 2010 car.
The extra weight and larger fuel tank and the changes in regs have essentially forced the teams to make some significant alterations to the 2010 car so it might seem reasonable that Brawn, who struggled to keep up in the latter stages of 2009 ( but still a strong car) would struggle to match the pace of development by the likes of RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari. Now Mercedes owned,. we can expect to see some solid improvements.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

No it wouldn't, as it would be stuck behind slower cars and unable to pass because of its higher fuel load, negating any speed advantage.

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Thats the whole point, if such fast cars are going to start behind slower cars then they would leap ahead of them by pitting far far later without needing to overtake them. Take any top driver who has started at the back end of the grid and you'll find that in nearly all cases they've gone for the heavy option. As I said, its convention.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

At best, Alonso could have hoped for an 8th place with that kind of strategy.

Short-fuelled would mean that the car would be in clean air and no traffic but still on the lead lap, a technique often employed in IndyCar.

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Wrong, in overtaking hell Singapore it would have meant he would have been kept behind slower cars on a heavier fuel load meaning he would lose his speed advantage AND pit earlier than them. Chances were that Alonso would actually have lost places by pitting as early as he did had there been no safety car incident.

If you don't believe me remember what happened when lightly fuelled cars got caught behind Trulli who was on an extremely heavy fuel load. They had their races ruined except for Rosberg who was lucky to get past.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

It would always need a safety car for the strategy to work, but the chances of a safety car were higher than normal given that it was a street circuit, a night race and a new track.

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True.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

To that extent, it was a plausible strategy to a driver whose weekend had otherwise just gone down the pan.

That Renault, or rather Flavio, Pat and Piquet, were planning on creating a safety car situation does not mean that it was an implausible strategy without knowledge of the plan.

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You assume that Alonso and his engineer would have gone for such a gamble without questioning it when he had a history of heavy fuelling when qualifying low down the field. Interesting. I thought Alonso was renowned not only for being intelligent but also being prepared to go against his team's advice?

Now tell me, had the situation been reversed and Hamilton had won an unlikely victory after Kovalainen had a rather well timed crash would you honestly be as charitable to Lewis?

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Now Mercedes owned,. we can expect to see some solid improvements.

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I don't believe so I'm afraid. Despite Honda's investment into the team the Brackley team still does not have the resources of McLaren or Ferrari. Mercedes has not invested much money into the project beyond buying the team, itself an astonishing bargain given how much Honda had spent over the years. By their own admission they have slashed their F1 spending to a quarter of what it used to be, and that is when they merely had to supply engines to McLaren. The Brackley team is going to have to develop their car on their own with financial and R/D resources that are not going to be on a par with what they had during the Honda days. I think Ross will manage his resources well but he can't perform miracles.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Exactly but no matter who we follow in this sport, we all can recognise talent to some degree. You and I have differing opinions but we both know Hamilton and Vettel are not the bewildered, simpleton's SD seems to paint them as. No other driver on the grid can make recommendations over the radio to his team other than the Spaniard apparently.. Alonso is an awesome driver and being a double WDC he deserves alot of respect, but he is not Jesus Christ. :)

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Not true!! After he qualified that Minardi at Albert Park, there were numerous reported sightings that evening of Fernando walking across the lake.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

I'm pretty sure Honda were not simultaneously building a 2009 and 2010 car.
The extra weight and larger fuel tank and the changes in regs have essentially forced the teams to make some significant alterations to the 2010 car so it might seem reasonable that Brawn, who struggled to keep up in the latter stages of 2009 ( but still a strong car) would struggle to match the pace of development by the likes of RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari. Now Mercedes owned,. we can expect to see some solid improvements.

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As I'm pretty sure you didn't read the whole thread as I admitted I did't understand what he was saying.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Short-fuelled would mean that the car would be in clean air and no traffic but still on the lead lap, a technique often employed in IndyCar.

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Short fuelled would mean he would have to overtake a lot of slower cars, make up many many places before making his ridiculously early pit stop. If not, he'll just come straight back out behind the cars he had just passed.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

a technique often employed in IndyCar.

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And how many 'guaranteed' yellows does the average Amayreecan race have to 'spice' up the show exactly?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I have all the proof of Mclaren being liars that I need, thanks.

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That's no good if you can't articulate the facts in order to shore up your accusations.

I know I just love an argument, but does anyone think SchM will improve on his Bahrain finish this weekend?

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I know I just love an argument, but does anyone think SchM will improve on his Bahrain finish this weekend?

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Given that Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren seem to have the edge over Mercedes at the moment, and if they're all reliable, then I think not.

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Originally Posted by eu

As I'm pretty sure you didn't read the whole thread as I admitted I did't understand what he was saying.

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my post was not an indictment or an attack against you neither was it set up to refute anything you were saying. I thought it was a good post but needed context in terms of Brawns involvement vis-avis the 2010 season.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Given that Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren seem to have the edge over Mercedes at the moment, and if they're all reliable, then I think not.

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I think improvement in his case would be to beat his team mate. Reasonable people would take in consideration the fact that other cars are just faster. No one would expect him to beat Ferrari and Red Bull. Let's not get him off the hook so easily. :P

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Originally Posted by henners88

Thats my prediction also. I think Schuey may have been under the impression the car would be alot more competitive, but we all know he is one of the best at giving feedback. I think he'll have 92 victories on his all time record at least, by the end of this season.. :)

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I'm probably over optimistic, but I give Shumi a chance at as many as 3 race wins this year:

1) Monte Carlo (a real drivers track)
2) Spa (no Kimi to worry about)
3) Imola (much to the dismay of the tifosi,, I'm afraid)

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Originally Posted by henners88

Imola isn't on the calendar but I realise you meant Monza. :)

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Yep...that's what I meant...hadn't had my morning coffee yet :beer:

I don't see Schumi getting a win this year. I hope I am very wrong though!

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I don't see Schumi getting a win this year. I hope I am very wrong though!

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Wait till we get a wet race - then there's every chance.

I think with no team orders, he will struggle against Nico who I consider a good mid-field runner.

In his youth, I fully appreciate that Schumacher was the best around, although some might argue the field was not as strong as other times. I do believe that his achievements were complimented by the dominance at times of the Ferrari and status he had within the Ferrari team.

It would be great to be wrong in this and see him conquer against a strong field but anyone with delusion of Schumacher performing at the level of Alonso or Hamilton may be sadly mistaken and I imagine the more extreem fans will be hunting for excuses and blaming the car before long.

Here's what the man himself thinks:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82364

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Originally Posted by henners88

So the cars are less effort to drive now than they were in 2006 when they were packed with driver aids and more aero devices? I remember in 2008 when traction control was banned and the drivers said it was alot more effort cornering because the cars were alot more twitchy and less forgiving. There was alot of talk about the onboard footage and how the drivers seemed to be actually driving the cars post 2007 and drivers being required to do alot more work inside the cockpit.

I'm sure Michael knows what he is talking about and that begs the question, have the cars got easier to drive in the last 2 years? :)

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As I understand it he says the car require less physical effort. I figure because they are slower the body has to support less in corners... or something like that... w(ho)tf knows?

Oh dear, during the last week so much material has been added to this thread that it would take an incredible effort to read it all through. Probably a sign of still being the most popular driver, which the results of a recent LG survey indicated? :p :