Should we be using winter tyres in the UK?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janneppi

It's been pretty slippery here this winter, i'm glad I run studded tyres. And even with them i might get wheelspin on third gear doing 60kph. ( it takes a bit of effort on the throttle though :) )
It's bad for trucks and busses. Two weeks ago i was driving to Lahti and a oncoming semi/combination (täysperävaunu for the finns) began snaking as it tried to brake into a junction in a downhill. It wasn't fun to see the back trailer in my lane, fortunately there was enough distance and the driver managed to keep most of the vehicle in his lane.

---

Janneppi, I can imagine he was sweating and shaking. Having a trailer walking out from behind the tractor is VERY unnerving. Clean the shorts out unnerving....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Janneppi, I can imagine he was sweating and shaking. Having a trailer walking out from behind the tractor is VERY unnerving. Clean the shorts out unnerving....

---

Not as unnerving as being right next to said truck :uhoh:

Looking out the window, yesterday's switch to winter tyres wasn't that bad an idea. Snow is flying horizontally across the yard. :)

Good idea then! In the UK we wouldn't normally expect to see snow until well into December, more likely January. Last year was unusual in that we got plenty before Christmas.

I know winter tyres aren't just for snow - before Daniel starts :p

Summer tires are still mounted on my POS. Forecast temp for today is 19 deg. C :) . I'll swap to winters only when there is the first hint of snow in the forecast, and that doesn't seem to be any time soon.

Pretty warm here of late, just starting to get cool now. I think it'll be November before I put the winter tyres back on the Fiat and buy a set for the Subaru.

Yep, temps still hovering around the 13C mark. I remember you saying they had to be consistently below 7C before they are effective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

Summer tires are still mounted on my POS. Forecast temp for today is 19 deg. C :) . I'll swap to winters only when there is the first hint of snow in the forecast, and that doesn't seem to be any time soon.

---

The magpie I saw today must have been domestic then.

"O to O" (Oktober to Oster) is the unofficial Winter tyre season in Germany.
I'll be changing soon I guess, as soon as it gets a bit colder :)

Hey Donks, what are the risks in driving on summer ti(y)res in cold, e.g. < 0 deg. C, weather if there is no snow?

depends how fast you're driving? :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

Hey Donks, what are the risks in driving on summer ti(y)res in cold, e.g. < 0 deg. C, weather if there is no snow?

---

Braking distances are longer, less lateral grip, more wear etc etc.

Even Caroline noticed the increase in grip and that was going from a 195 to a 175 which is obviously 10% narrower. Not the difference between life or death but if a woman notices it!!!! *runs and hides* :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by donKey jote

depends how fast you're driving? :p

---

Allow me to rephrase Donky... :arrows:

I've been lead to believe that a summer ti(y)re commound is not suitable for dry pavement in cold weather.
I've also been lead to believe that you were somewhat of a subject matter expert in many things vulcanized :erm: .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

Allow me to rephrase Donky... :arrows:

I've been lead to believe that a summer ti(y)re commound is not suitable for dry pavement in cold weather.
I've also been lead to believe that you were somewhat of a subject matter expert in many things vulcanized :erm: .

---

Donks is a Trekkie? :confused:

:p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janneppi

Looking out the window, yesterday's switch to winter tyres wasn't that bad an idea. Snow is flying horizontally across the yard. :)

---

That's good! Why complain?
If the snow is falling horisontally, it will never hit the ground, therefore it will never pile up on the road....by this rigid logic you should not need any snow tires, just really good windscreen wipers and defrost..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

Braking distances are longer, less lateral grip, more wear etc etc.

Even Caroline noticed the increase in grip and that was going from a 195 to a 175 which is obviously 10% narrower. Not the difference between life or death but if a woman notices it!!!! *runs and hides* :p

---

Thanks Daniel.
The reason I'm asking is that winter precipitation in my neck of the woods can vary quite a bit. Cold temperatures are a given, but we have been known to have relatively little snowfall. I can see myself keeping the summer ti(y)res mounted well into the winter season if we have little snow :mark:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by donKey jote

depends how fast you're driving? :p

---

And if there is ice or the road is dry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

I've been lead to believe that a summer ti(y)re commound is not suitable for dry pavement in cold weather.

---

ok you asked for it... here's my donkey view:
One of the characteristics of a rubber compound is called it's glass transition temperature Tg. This Tg defines the transition of the rubber from being viscoelastic to being -you guessed it- "glassy".
For normal temperatures, grip actually tends to increase with decreasing temperature, as rubber becomes more visco-elastic and less elastic (better grip vs worse rolling resistance).
However go too low and rubber loses it's rubberness and grip altogether.

Now, if you have shight summer tires (i.e. the standard mileage oriented rubbers you tend to prefer over in the N of A, which tend to have more natural rubber and a lower Tg) then you probably won't notice too much difference on a dry pavement as it gets colder within reason.
However if you have high(er) performance tires (i.e high grip focus compounds), then your tires can get noticeably harder and/or brittler as the temperature decreases -> less grip.
I wouldn't recommend parking your Porsche outside at -40°C for example, or when you start to roll your tires might break :p

To summarise, for dry roads I wouldn't expect too much of difference at around 0°C with your standard lower grip/higher mileage tires. 0°C is a dodgy temperature though- black ice and all that.

Whatever your tires, summer or winter, you need to know what you have and drive accordingly :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

Thanks Daniel.
The reason I'm asking is that winter precipitation in my neck of the woods can vary quite a bit. Cold temperatures are a given, but we have been known to have relatively little snowfall. I can see myself keeping the summer ti(y)res mounted well into the winter season if we have little snow :mark:

---

and if you have snow, then get proper winter tires with a snowflake symbol. "M+S" doesn't have anything to do with winter performance ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by donKey jote

and if you have snow, then get proper winter tires with a snowflake symbol. "M+S" doesn't have anything to do with winter performance ;)

---

Yes that just meanst that there is a certain percentage of cuts in the tyre right?

M+S doesn't mean anything. You could legally slap the stamp on any tire if you wanted.
In fact, from a legal point of view, winter tires simply don't exist :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by donKey jote

and if you have snow, then get proper winter tires with a snowflake symbol. "M+S" doesn't have anything to do with winter performance ;)

---

Interesting. It was something I read on another forum so wasn't sure :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by donKey jote

M+S doesn't mean anything. You could legally slap the stamp on any tire if you wanted.
In fact, from a legal point of view, winter tires simply don't exist :p

---

My head just exploded :p I have winter tyres in the shed :mark: :p

I have a set of proper winter ti(y)res. Never checked for any markings although they do have a deep aggressive thread and make a world of a difference in snow/ice conditions. I just like to mount them as late as possible in the fall and remove them as early as I can in the spring, basically to minimize the mileage I put on them to eke out as many winter seasons as possible before having to purchase a new set (yes, I'm a cheapo :rolleyes: ).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

I have a set of proper winter ti(y)res. Never checked for any markings although they do have a deep aggressive thread and make a world of a difference in snow/ice conditions. I just like to mount them as late as possible in the fall and remove them as early as I can in the spring, basically to minimize the mileage I put on them to eke out as many winter seasons as possible before having to purchase a new set (yes, I'm a cheapo :rolleyes: ).

---

It's not being cheap, there's no sense in putting your tyres on too early and wearing them unnecessarily. When I started work in March at the place I'm working at now, I noticed a car on the very same winter tyres as my 500 was wearing. I took mine off early April and it's had them on the whole year and you can see that they've worn a fair bit.

I've done about 2 and a half thousand miles on my winters so far and they've got around 7-8mm tread left and 16 thousand miles on my summers and they've got 6mm tread left. I'm pretty happy with that :) one thing to consider is that if you've got a set of low profile summer tyres and a set of chunky winters is that the winter tyres will generally be cheaper. My winters were £52 each and the summer ones are more like £60-75 for decent ones so even if the winters do wear a little quicker if there's a bit of warmth, it's still fine from a money POV :)

It makes sense to manage your tyres, I mean what's the point in just throwing away money for no reason?

19 deg. C yesterday but today it is 3 C and snowing :dozey:

nice one :laugh: :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

19 deg. C yesterday but today it is 3 C and snowing :dozey:

---

Intermediates?

The answer today is definitely yes :) Trip to work was uber fun today being able to overtake the slowpokes with summer tyres :D

Couple of inches of snow here at work and I'm glad I brought the Fiat and not the Subaru.

I'd like winter three but it's the praticalties that put me off! What do you do with your summer tyres in the winter and vice versa.

Don't take up all that much room tbh. Ours go in the shed. Failing that they could go in a corner of a Garden or some tyre places operate tyre hotels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark

I'd like winter three but it's the praticalties that put me off! What do you do with your summer tyres in the winter and vice versa.

---

You could stack them up, cover the stack with a cloth and use it as a round table/footstool.

Ah so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark

Ah so.

---

I guess it all depends how inconvenient it is for you to store them. If you're going to be stepping around or over a stack of tyres every day of the year then that's pretty stupid but if they go in a corner of the backyard under a cover or in a small shed then IMHO it's worth it. Tyre hotels are also an option, apparently Kwik fit are doing it? -> http://www.tyrepress.com/News/busine.../28/20480.html

Would I trust Kwik ****up with a nice set of alloys though? I think not!!!!

Gotta love driving in the snow :D

http://oi56.tinypic.com/50jfcl.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

I guess it all depends how inconvenient it is for you to store them. If you're going to be stepping around or over a stack of tyres every day of the year then that's pretty stupid but if they go in a corner of the backyard under a cover or in a small shed then IMHO it's worth it. Tyre hotels are also an option, apparently Kwik fit are doing it? -> http://www.tyrepress.com/News/busine.../28/20480.html

Would I trust Kwik ****up with a nice set of alloys though? I think not!!!!

Gotta love driving in the snow :D

http://oi56.tinypic.com/50jfcl.jpg

---

Bet the bloke in the Bimmer had the most fun on the way to work though, RWD is the way forward (or sideways) :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo

Bet the bloke in the Bimmer had the most fun on the way to work though, RWD is the way forward (or sideways) :D

---

Well luckily/notsoluckily the snow came when a lot of people were already in work but I bet he had a fun trip back home :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I guess they don't sell an All season tire in the UK? They are a tire that isn't a great summer performer, but ok, and in winter they can be ok, not great in snow. I live in a winter climate, but find with traffic being what it is when it snows, I don't get up to any high rate of speed anyhow, and have gotten by with All Seasons. I SHOULD have Winter tires if I did any commuting, but most of my work week the car isn't going anywhere, it is sitting. Also, in Southern Ontario where I am, the snow removal and salt trucks have the roads to bare pavement in about 12 hours after a snow on all major routes.

IN the UK, I would think you would wear out winter tires on the pavement for the amount of snow you get, but since I am not there, I cannot comment. I just know in Quebec, it is law to have Winter tires...and I suspect it will be law here too. Because god knows some people cannot drive on dry pavement, but somehow passing laws that fit everyone will allow the pol's to think they have done all they can. I have been driving 25 years, and I have never left the road in the winter. Got stuck a few times yes...but that was in drives or parking lots. So take it from someone who LIVES in a winter clime, winter tires are a great asset, but for one or two snows a year; I would get by with an all season tire if it was available.

---

All season tires are NOT snow or even winter tyres, they are designed to handle wet/damp weather better than standard tyres and that is all.
Here tire sellers do not EVER tell anyone that all-season tyres are good for winter, in any manner.

I finally after many years, partly due to very mild winters, bought true snow tyres and it was a difference of day and night.
I have fifteen inch wheels and am considering getting sixteen inch so I can put on light truck snow tyres, which are better than the average car snow tyre.

Now Blizzak, there is nothing else, period, as good as Blizzak for severe winter weather, told to me by a Goodyear tyre salesman.

I have also considered, they are expensive, in getting bias-ply snow tires again as here when we have heavy snow, if one runs them five pounds or so under inflated, are fantastic for driving through heavy snow. They have a tread pattern more similar to a tractor tire than car tire.
Thirty years ago when the normal Minn. winter was what most consider extreme conditions, I carried a set of true chain in the trunk for emergency use, and did use them at times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

All season tires are NOT snow or even winter tyres, they are designed to handle wet/damp weather better than standard tyres and that is all.
Here tire sellers do not EVER tell anyone that all-season tyres are good for winter, in any manner.

I finally after many years, partly due to very mild winters, bought true snow tyres and it was a difference of day and night.
I have fifteen inch wheels and am considering getting sixteen inch so I can put on light truck snow tyres, which are better than the average car snow tyre.

Now Blizzak, there is nothing else, period, as good as Blizzak for severe winter weather, told to me by a Goodyear tyre salesman.

I have also considered, they are expensive, in getting bias-ply snow tires again as here when we have heavy snow, if one runs them five pounds or so under inflated, are fantastic for driving through heavy snow. They have a tread pattern more similar to a tractor tire than car tire.
Thirty years ago when the normal Minn. winter was what most consider extreme conditions, I carried a set of true chain in the trunk for emergency use, and did use them at times.

---

Finally we agree on something bob :p

Blizzak's are good and do well in the tests but there are a number of tyres which also test very well and are up there too. But it depends what you get over there in the USA as to whether the competition is any good I guess :) Strangely enough Goodyear Ultragrip 7+'s are very good so your Goodyear salesman is underselling the potential of his product :)

According to the latest test from Tekniikan Mualima, Goodyear's ultra grips won their test, followed by Continentals and Nokian's. Blizzak Nordics were fifth, having good straight line grip on snow and ice, not so good driving charasteritcs in wet and dry tarmac.
Not that I care about non studded tyres. :)

In the same test they also had studded tyres and the straigth line braking distances between tyres are quite big.
best studdeds at 50 kph were around 50-52 m, worst (Chinese whatnotts) at 70-72m
best non studdeds were around 68-70m and worst (Kenda Icetec)around 85m


I did a brake test few days ago, full brake at 50 kph on icy snow. I was a bit surprised to see how long the stopping distance was, about 65 meters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janneppi

According to the latest test from Tekniikan Mualima, Goodyear's ultra grips won their test, followed by Continentals and Nokian's. Blizzak Nordics were fifth, having good straight line grip on snow and ice, not so good driving charasteritcs in wet and dry tarmac.
Not that I care about non studded tyres. :)

I did a brake test few days ago, full brake at 50 kph on icy snow. I was a bit surprised to see how long the stopping distance was, about 65 meters.

---

I'd love to drive on studs one day just to feel what it's like :)