Well quite...the lie is no longer the issue, it's what they allegedly asked Piquet to do and from the Autosport report is seems telemetary is backing his side of events.
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Well quite...the lie is no longer the issue, it's what they allegedly asked Piquet to do and from the Autosport report is seems telemetary is backing his side of events.
IMO telemetry cannot prove that somebody ordered Piquet to crash, it can only prove that Piquet himself crashed intentionally. They need hard evidence in order to prove that it was Flavio or Symonds that ordered it. IMO Piquet's words againt theirs will not hold in court.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am evil Homer
It puzzles me that you think lying about this is in some way appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
The real sad thing here could be deeper than one wants.
1. Piquet is a whiny daddy's boy - so that is a big turn-off to many who follow F1.
2. Flavio is a documented cheater!
3. MOsely is a revengeful twit
4. Bernie probably wants to make a movie out of it
So all and all it gets interesting. We discussed it but never ordered it. Oh I had TC on the car but we never used it.
Oh Daddy I just can't beat him - can you buy me a special engine
For Christ's sake I am for digging up the "Old Man"
What court?!Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
And in a court things aren't black and white either, especially when two of the major players gave contradicting testimony.
If you add the fact that telemetry supports the intended crash accusation than someone's head will fall and I'm sure enough that it will be Symonds one of those to be ousted.
I hope Pat had nothing to do with it because he always seemed a very intelligent, forthright guy. In fact the only person who was capable of out-witting Brawn.
Meanwhile Flav continues only employing people he manages....
By the looks of it either Flavio or Pat lied when questioned about the events, so at least one of them is going to be walked all over during the coming weeks and I have a feeling it will not be the big sweaty guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am evil Homer
Lest we forget that Flavio and Max M are not best buddies..........
Surely you're not suggested Max would use some sort of personal vendetta to remove Ron...sorry...I meant Flavio...
There should be a statute of limitations on this stuff. Last year is over.
Crimes of any kind should be investigated whenever they are discovered.Quote:
Originally Posted by rabf1
And BTW fixing the result of a sporting event is apparently considered a crime in Singapore (and if I remember rightly people were convicted in Italy to for some football game results being fixed) and the Renault team bosses might risk prison over there.
from what Symonds has supposedly said perhaps there is enough to suggest that it was a bit more than Piquets normal driving, and as asuch moves have started to hang the guy out to dry - after all he's the guy who carried it out (if it happened), so expect Renault to close ranks and pin it all on Jnr.
Renault staff already made contradictory statements, it's to late to close ranks after you have lied and others know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
Also it will be a bit difficult to expect others to believe that Alonso's first short stint, decided already Saturday after the qualifying has been masterminded by Piquet Jr. and the team accepted it.
To many things don't add up in this theory that Piquet Jr. is at fault for what happened, one of them being that he wouldn't be as stupid as to go and tell the FIA if he was indeed the one who was behind the whole affair.
Also why is that even though according to Symonds the team knew about what Piquet was up to, they agreed to go ahead with his plan instead of firing him on the very first moment they learned about it?!
Looks to me that either Renault leaves F1 as a result or they will hang Symonds (and maybe Flavio too) out to dry.
Well this sort of thing can end up in a criminal court very easily. Causing danger etc. If Piquet admits he crashed intentionally, he's in a very vulnerable situation regarding the law, I would think.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I didn't mean that. I meant that if you do such a thing, why give contradictory statements afterwards? If you choose the path, you must follow it. Bonus of that would be that Renault would stay in F1. Now we might well see another manufacturer go.Quote:
Originally Posted by keysersoze
The cross never minded my thought!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by I am evil Homer
I'm tired of this story already. wish it would just go away. There is no way these claims can be even substantiated based on rumor and hearsay. And whatever comments where made a year ago cannot be even taken properly into context this year. It seems to me that piquet knowing that his F1 career is probably over decided to take a parting shot at Renault, along with with Mosley.
To me, if this is prove true, the real culprit would still be piquet as he had the choice not to follow the order and still decided to go crash his car. No matter what the team tells you to do, as a driver, it is your responsibility out on the track to make your decisions. F1 history is full of situations where drivers disobeyed team communications for their own gain, many for much less requests than to crash a car. IF this were true and the order came through the radio, any normal driver's response would be "WTF? I'm not doing that" and then deal with whatever fallout that would come with all the chips on his side if the team tried to take action. It would be the that he would go to the FIa and state his case. not 1year later after many more crashes and a firing for non performance.
As I have said, I don't believe NPJr and find it hard to imagine that Pat Symmonds had anything to do with such a stupid order. All this situation is doing is tainting the sport, and potentially having Renault decide to leave the sport to everyone's detriment, except Max Mosley, who would be happy as can be with no manufacturers in the sport, a single engine supplier and a joke of an F1 series.
I know this sounds harsh but as an F1 fan I think F1 and FIA should somehow bury this thing, give golden handshakes or whatever to make this go away. F1 just cannot afford this type of publicity and the possible pull-out by Renault would mean that one team would be without engines and one would be gone altogether. 3 manufacturer-pullouts in a space of one year is too much. Soon there are not enough engines to go around, except archaic Cosworths. IMO Piquet didn't do the thing alone, but it's done, nothing can be done about it now.
NELSON PIQUET JR'S STATEMENT TO THE FIA IN FULL:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21798.html
Nelson Piquet's FIA statement revealed
The legal statement made to the FIA by Nelson Piquet Jr has been leaked to the F1SA website. It is not clear how this has happened but we believe that the World Council dossier has been sent out and the leak must come from one of the members.
The statement made is as follows:
I, Nelson Angelo Piquet, born July 25, 1985 in Heidelberg, Germany...say as follows:
1. Except as otherwise stated, the facts and statements contained in this Statement are based on facts and matters within my knowledge. I believe such facts and statements contained in this Statement to be true and correct. Where any facts or statements are not within my own knowledge, they are true to the best of my knowledge and belief and, where appropriate, I indicate the source of that knowledge and belief.
2. I make this Statement voluntarily to the FIA and for the purposes of allowing the FIA to exercise its supervisory and regulatory functions with regard to the FIA Formula One World Championship.
3. I am aware that there is a duty upon all participants in the FIA Formula One World Championship and all Super Licence holders to ensure the fairness and legitimacy of the Championship and I am aware that serious consequences could follow if I were to provide the FIA with any false or misleading statement.
4. I understand that my complete statement has been recorded on audio tape and that a full transcript of my audio recording will be made available to me and the FIA. The present document constitutes a summary of the main points made during my full oral statement.
5. I wish to bring the following facts to the FIA’s attention.
6. During the Formula One Grand Prix of Singapore, held on 28 September 2008 and counting towards the 2008 FIA Formula One World Championship, I was asked by Mr. Flavio Briatore, who is both my manager and the Team Principal of the ING Renault F1 Team, and by Mr. Pat Symonds, the Technical Director of the Renault F1 Team, to deliberately crash my car in order to positively influence the performance of the ING Renault F1 Team at the event in question. I agreed to this proposal and caused my car to hit a wall and crash during lap thirteen/fourteen of the race.
7. The proposal to deliberately cause an accident was made to me shortly before the race took place, when I was summoned by Mr. Briatore and Mr. Symonds in Mr. Briatore’s office. Mr. Symonds, in the presence of Mr. Briatore, asked me if I would be willing to sacrifice my race for the team by “causing a safety car”. Every F1 race driver knows that the safety car is deployed on a track when there is an accident which leads to the track being blocked either by debris or a stationary car, and where it is difficult to recover a damaged car, as was the case here.
8. At the time of this conversation I was in a very fragile and emotional state of mind. This state of mind was brought about by intense stress due to the fact that Mr. Briatore had refused to inform me of whether or not my driver’s contract would be renewed for the next racing year (2009), as is customarily the case in the middle of the year (around July or August). Instead, Mr. Briatore repeatedly requested me to sign an “option”, which meant that I was not allowed to negotiate with any other teams in the meantime. He would repeatedly put pressure on me to prolong the option I had signed, and would regularly summon me into his office to discuss these renewals, even on racing days – a moment which should be a moment of concentration and relaxation before the race. This stress was accentuated by the fact that during the Formula One Grand Prix of Singapore I had qualified sixteenth on the grid, so I was very insecure about my future at the Renault team. When I was asked to crash my car and cause a safety car incident in order to help the team, I accepted because I hoped that it could improve my position within the team at this critical time in the race season. At no point was I told by anyone that by agreeing to cause an incident, I would be guaranteed a renewal of my contract or any other advantage. However, in the context, I thought that it would be helpful in achieving this goal. I therefore agreed to cause the incident.
9. After the meeting with Mr. Symonds and Mr. Briatore, Mr. Symonds took me aside to a quiet corner and, using a map, pointed me to the exact corner of the track where I should crash. This corner was selected because the specific location of the track did not have any cranes that would allow a damaged car to be swiftly lifted off the track, nor did it have any side entrances to the track, which would allow a Safety Marshall to quickly move the damaged car away from the track. Therefore, it was felt that a crash in this specific position would be nearly certain to cause an obstruction on the track which would thus necessitate the deployment of a safety car in order to allow the track to be cleared and to ensure the safe continuation of the race.
[]B10. Mr. Symonds also told me which exact lap to cause the incident upon, so that a strategy could deployed for my team-mate Mr. Fernando Alonso to refuel at the pit shortly before the deployment of the safety car, which he indeed did during lap twelve. The key to this strategy resided in the fact that the near-knowledge that the safety car would be deployed in lap thirteen/fourteen allowed the Team to start Mr. Alonso’s car with an aggressive fuel strategy using a light car containing enough fuel to arrive at lap twelve, but not much more. This would allow Mr. Alonso to overtake as many (heavier) cars as possible, knowing that those cars would have difficulty catching up with him later in the race due to the later deployment of the safety car. This strategy was successful and Mr. Alonso won the 2008 Formula One Grand Prix of Singapore.[/B]
11. During these discussions, no mention was made of any concerns with respect to the security implications of this strategy, either for myself, the public or other drivers. The only comment made in this context was one by Mr. Pat Symonds who warned me to “be careful”, which I took to mean that I should not injure myself.
12. I intentionally caused the crash by letting go of control of the car just before the relevant corner. In order to make sure I would cause the incident during the correct lap, I asked my team several times via the radio to confirm the lap number, which I would not normally do. I was not injured during the accident, nor was anyone else.
13. After the discussions with Mr. Briatore and Mr. Symonds discussed above, the ‘accident strategy’ was never discussed again with either of them. Mr. Briatore discreetly said “thank you” after the end of the race, without mentioning anything further. I do not know if anyone else was aware of this strategy at the start of the race.
14. After the race I informed Mr. Felipe Vargas, a family friend and advisor, of the fact that the incident had been deliberate. Mr. Vargas further infirmed my father, Mr. Nelson Piquet, some time later.
15. After the race several journalists asked questions about the accident and asked me whether I had caused it on purpose, because they felt it was ‘suspicious’.
16. In my own team, the engineer of my car questioned the nature of the incident because he found it unusual, and I replied that I had lost control of the car. I believe that a clever engineer would notice from the car’s telemetry that I caused the incident on purpose as I continued accelerating , whereas a “normal” reaction would be to brake as soon as possible.
Statement of Truth
I believe and swear that the facts set out in this statement are true.
This statement was made at the FIA Headquarters in Paris on 30 July 2009 in presence of Mr. Alan Donnelly (FIA Chairman of the Stewards), Mr. Martin Smith and Mr. Jacob Marsh (both of investigations firm Quest, retained by the FIA to assist with its investigation). Notes were taken by Ms. Domenique Costesec (Sidley Austin LLP).
Signed:
Nelson Piquet Jr.
I want to be angry, but all I can manage at the moment is sadness that my sport has been sullied by the combined actions of a clueless team owner, a desperate technical director and a foolish driver.
When this first broke I believed (hoped) that there was no foundation to the rumor, however it seems the rules of fair play and sportsmanship mean nothing to these people :(
You mean golden handcuffs?!Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
A clues team boss, and I'm sure that the team owner are getting their axe sharpened right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
You lil' perv. :mad: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
:D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...-renault-boss/
This is getting ever more serious, Renault is grilling Flavio, alive! :eek:
that statement from NpJr is what I expected
1. no real evidence other than his word
2. and admission that he was not guranteed anything ni return for crashing the car and he did so thinking it would help his case with the team (obviously this backfired)
3. nothing apart fro his tleemetry to back up his claim
4. the 360 days it took him to come forward...incidentaly after his team's dismissal.
the way I look at it, he caused the accident all by himself and after sitting down with his father and confidant and seeing how it it inadvertently aided Alonso, he decided to leverage that to his advantage and probably sorta held the team hostage with that bit of evidence as some sort of a guarantee to continue racing with the team. the only real surprise was that he continued to race for them in 2009 when everyone was sure he would not be retained.
This leads me to believe that he held that incident over them and tried to use it to continue racing with the team. it would also explain the team's complete disdain for him and Flavio's apparent disinterest in him completely. completely fed up with the antics, and poor driving they finally fired him in Hungary and are probably well prepared to defend this stupid accusation.
The real loser here is Piquet in my book. Followed by the MM lead FIa who is trying to get one more scalp on his way out as petty revenge.
Renault have to chose between throwing Flavio and Symonds out or taking legal action against Piquet.
However they will have to weight their options very well because they can not throw Flav out nor take Piquet to court without knowing what exactly are the proof that the FIA has managed to amass against them.
If they throw Flav to the dogs than they actually accept that he and implicitly the team cheated.
If they take Piquet to the court and it turns out that indeed Flav and Symonds concocted the plan than they will not only lose face in F1 but also in a court of law.
Tough decision to make Mr. Ghosn.
Not really, telemtry and radio recordings support his version of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
A very smart statement because if he says he did it because they promised him to sign him than he's done too.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
+ pit wall radio records. More than enough as he can't fabricate any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
The facts were reported to the FIA days before he was sacked. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
I suppose you are afraid that Alonso might get dragged into the mud in this case. Do not worry none of the parties have said anything about Alonso being involved in this plan. Also the FIA will protect him as they need him to make things interesting in the future, hopefully on the track.
I'm sure I can be forgiven the ill worded title I gave Mr Briatore, the sentement is still the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Yep, his title does not change his nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
what radio communications?
I have not read anywhere about radio communications, nor where any mentioned in his sworn statement. The only thing we have is his word ioan. and nothing else. If there were radio communications, it would have been brought to light 360 days ago when certain drivers questioned the timing and the FIA had every right and reason to request them. Even by NPJr own words he says the matter was not discussed again and only got a thank you from Flav after the race (which to me sounded like a cynical thanks rather than a sincere appreciation)
So where are these pitwall & radio communications that you mention and what exactly does the telemetry show.
may I remind you that telemetry would indicate kubica accelerating to the wall in canada, Alonso accelerating in Japan 2007, that kimi would have had unusual telemetry in a couple of his crashes (including monaco where it could be interpreted as deliberate if you took NPJr word for telemetry readings) or massa in silverstote last year, based on telemetry would have looked deliberate 3-4 times. spinning on a spot where others didn't in a slow funny fashion. So let'snot get excited about telemetry here because, it can be twisted to look anyway you want it too.
Don't get so worked up.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
There's plenty of articles around about this story. Everything is in there.
Q: what team would keep a driver that offered to crash the car before the race then did crash the car why did they not report him and drop him from the team ?
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/files/...ion_mark_2.jpg
Why the hell do some people here want this swept under the carpet?!
If a team has engaged in race-fixing, that's a CRIMINAL OFFENCE in most countries these days.
Exactly. This proves that the teams is at fault even if this would have been Jr's idea, which I doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbolt
Why? Because accepting the reality that does not suit their reality might be very very difficult, sometimes, impossible for some people. It's all about the human nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody
We see this kind of reaction every time something unusual happens.
My reason for wanting that is the fear of losing another manufacturer which would be very bad for F1. I couln't care less about Piquet or Flavio & Symonds, I just feel that their stupid actions shouldn't be dealt in a way that results in an unnecessary withdrawal of Renault. Punishments? Yes, but somewhere where there are no cameras, not all "trials" have to be public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody
None of this should be "swept under the carpet". F1 as a sport needs to demonstrate to the wider world that it's capable of dealing with any allegation in a fair and transparent way. There's enough accusations flying around already damaging the sport, the last thing we need is a whitewash or some dodgy deal made with a secret handshake.
If there's race-fixing or corruption in the sport it should be exposed and flushed out. If that means the exit of an otherwise successful team then so be it.
I'd rather have opinion that team order is internal affair of teams. Race stewards and none of us notice something wrong with Piquet crash and consider it pure incident, unless one history doer, NPJr supposedly, announce it to public. The occurrence has been good a while, hence this case is already beyond its limitation period.
No one can say something by way of prohibition on him not to disclose the problem to public, this is more about character of personal of a driver. Once he agreed something he should keep the commitment and any form of information leakage is not justifiable.
However, there are different fashions commonly acceptable to translate team strategy other than crash order.
This is understandable for Alonso, a two times champion that the classic problem of him is asking team for number one status. Never rate yourself too high... ;)
Comments from the drivers in Thursday's press conference:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78465Quote:
Q. (Ian Parkes – The Press Association) Gentlemen, I'm sure you're all aware of the ongoing Renault situation at the moment. Could I just get a general perspective from all five of you? Are you surprised that something like that could happen in this sport, or does nothing surprise you in F1 anymore?
Rubens Barrichello: Well, it's quite difficult to think that somebody would crash a car because he was told to. Very realistically speaking, I think it's easier to crash a Formula One car than drive a Formula One car, that's a fair point, because of the amount of power and everything. It's very easy to crash the car. But to get to that point, I was put into a situation in Austria which was the limit of the limit. There were eight laps of conversation, the conversation going on and things were said to me that I had to give up, but I had to give up in front of everyone, everyone knew what was going on there. It's very, very sad. If that's true, it's very, very sad. The only thing I can see is that somebody wants Briatore's head, that's all I can see now, because it sounds very strange.
Robert Kubica: I would prefer not to comment.
Vitantonio Liuzzi: There's definitely a very fine line; it's very difficult to believe, as Rubens said, that somebody would crash on purpose. It's a difficult thing to believe that something would have been started like that but for sure, it's a really soft thing to touch. It's not a good thing for the sport if it's true, and hopefully it will never happen again.
Giancarlo Fisichella: I don't have a lot to say, because now they are investigating and until that happens, I don't want to say anything.
Jarno Trulli: There's very little to say. There is an investigation and we will find out what happened later. Honestly, we can only read a little but no more.
I found race technical analysis on it, Is it a correct link?... ;)