Printable View
But what his intention was, is irrelevant, because he couldn'tve made that chicane without cutting it, and whether he wanted to or not, he negated the advantage he had by cutting the chicane, by conceding the position.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
What would you suggest then, in a similar situation? Surely conceding the position so that the gap was the same as before the chicane was cut is sufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by fandango
Hamilton clearly had nowhere to go. Unless you're suggesting that he should've parked his car so that Kimi could go through the chicane without Lewis cutting it. As a competitive race driver, with a split second to think about that - In your dreams.Quote:
If he had gone through the chicane behind Kimi he woudn't have been in such a good position to pass him going into La Source.
Some say he couldn't have have gone through the chicane behind Kimi without crashing into him. This is, imo, because he was way too ambitious trying to pass at the chicane: Kimi had already won it at the first apex, and there simply isn't room for two cars to go through side-by-side.
Watch the actual footage. Hamilton brakes at least half a second later than Kimi, going into the chicane.Quote:
So he outbrakes Kimi at La Source, but found it impossible to use those same brakes (as only he can, according to some) one corner earlier?
He would've been in Raikkonen's sidepod, or rear wheel. There was no room at that chicane, because Raikkonen was dictating the line through there, and he chose to use all of the chicane.Quote:
Where would Hamilton have been if he hadn't cut the chicane? Not as well placed as he was as he went over the line. Kimi was left racing Hamilton where was on the track, not where he should have been.
An armchair expert, I see.Quote:
I think it's also worth mentioning that Kimi was a bit of a dunce here too. Knowing that Lewis had an unfair advantage and would be forced to yield to him or face a penalty, he didn't really use the situation to his advantage.
Just take a look to my first post in this thread. I conceded that Hamilton gave back the position. And thus I said that he was right.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
However the stewards think he didn't do it right. That's why I would like to have a chance to see the telemetry data. If it's clear that Lewis lifted in rder to give up his advantage, than he shouldn't have been punished.
This isn't about intentions, it's about advantages that one gets unfairly.
And like always, we, the fans are kept in the dark in regard to the relevant data, needed to judge the situation.
the video posted here from onboard..goin into the chicane...One can clearly see Lewis was way faster on the approach of it..Kimi saw Lewis was goin to make an attempt to pass him an staid on the right...Due to this blocking move of Kimi he couldn't make the first part of the chicane in a propre way..look at where his car is positioned coming out of the first part of the chicane..than look at the position of any car taking the chicane in a "normal" way..having Lewis besides him he just not left any room for Lewis leaving him no other choise than to cut of the chicane to avoid an accident...
also the other video...Like others said..You have to see the data...I persoanly am not an expert to tell from this video Lewis was goin at full speed or not...anyway..just like in so many incidents in the past...Lewis let Kimi pass by again...normal racing incident one would say..end of story...
face 3...Lewis being back in the position from before the chicane...behind Kimi...Kimi passing Lewis on the straight line meaning Lewis was slower...also meaning the cutting of the chicane didn't gave him any advantage...anyway Lewis was able again to break way later than Kimi..and moves back into 1st spot..although..and again..why is this never mentioned by the marchals for dangerous driving ?...Kimi tried to take him out by aiming for his right rear tire...
That's the relevant part of it. Kimi had the right to chose the line because he had the winning line in the chicane.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Hamilton had to chose between braking and giving up the chicane or cut it. He chose the one that put him in a difficult situation.
We need to know if he did enough to negate the advantage he gained by cutting the chicane.
That's called racing. Hamilton was the one who made the mistake by thinking he would be able to overtake Kimi on the outside going into the chicane. Obviously he wasn't in a superior position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
There were several other people who overtook going into that chicane, they were all completely in front of the overtaken car when they turned in for the first part of the chicane and could take the right line to exit it. Hamilton was relying on Kimi letting him through and that was never going to happen.
I wasn't claiming that you thought otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Exactly - I don't think that Lewis should be punished for whether he lifted or didn't, because the end result was that he conceded the position to Raikkonen, negating the advantage he had.Quote:
However the stewards think he didn't do it right. That's why I would like to have a chance to see the telemetry data. If it's clear that Lewis lifted in rder to give up his advantage, than he shouldn't have been punished.
This isn't about intentions, it's about advantages that one gets unfairly.
I would like to see the telemetry available to the public, even though I dont think that would ever happen, due to fear that giving away telemetry will give other F1 teams an advantage.Quote:
And like always, we, the fans are kept in the dark in regard to the relevant data, needed to judge the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
to me the superior position is the one being on the ideal racing line...It was actualy Kimi making a block move..staying on the inside line..off the racing line....But also meaning he couldn't take the chicane in the ideal way..pushing the car besides him off the track...
but like you said..it's called racing and this should have been seen as just a racing incident...end of story !
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of this, what pisses me off as an F1 fan is that a great race has been ruined. Whether the decision is overturned or not the 2008 Belgian GP will be remembered for this and not for the dramatic and exciting last few laps.
Coming into work on Monday morning people are not talking about a great race at one of the great F1 venues, and they should be.
If he didn't lift, than he didn't give back the advantage he gained by cutting the chicane, and he is guilty.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
If he lifted than he is unguilty.
They will have to make the telemetry data public for the appeal anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Kimi had the ideal racing line. So he could block the $h!t out of Hamilton if he wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
It was up to Hamilton not to get in a stupid situation, and I'm not sure he managed it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Totally agree with you, still I think FIA made the right decision :)
But why does whether he lifted matter? The advantage he gained was that he passed Raikkonen, which was negated moments later. Regardless of whether he lifted or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Unless the stewards are trying to argue that:
If Hamilton braked as early into the chicane as Raikkonen did, and followed Raikkonen through the chicane on the racing line, he would not have been as close to Raikkonen before the braking zone to La Source as he would've if he did what he did - meaning Hamilton gained an unfair advantage.
Which would be a flawed argument. They would be forgetting about why grand prix drivers race, and instead, rely on armchair expertise rather than empathy for the sitation of the drivers in that situation. Seeing a win being taken from a driver because of a petty and contentious argument is disappointing and irritating, not least because it means I have to defend Hamilton :p :
I did not know this.Quote:
ll have to make the telemetry data public for the appeal anyway.
yp he was and yep he could..But by doin so..staying on the inside (right side of the track) he left the ideal line..Lewis staid on the left...on the ideal racing line...in these conditions also meaning Lewis had an advantage in breaking..what explains why he got besides Kimi....Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
It sounds, then, as though Hamilton shot himself in the foot anyway by braking too late in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Personally, I think that to stop these issues in future, the FIA should say that results cannot be changed after the race has finished, and that penalties given after the race should be limited to fines and/or grid position penalties for the next race.
Because if he didn't lift it means that he clearly obtained an advantage by cutting the chicane, rather than going around it. Just take a look at the trajectories both cars had, and see which one was shorter.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
I doubt that they could support their point without making that.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
If they win the appeal than other teams will have the right to ask to see the proof.
No ofense but your post proves that you don't understand racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
The car that has the apex on a corner has the racing line, not the other one.
But seems Kimi's trajectoire was the faster one..otherwise explain why he could pass Lewis on the straight ? so again..what advantage ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I give up on trying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
I think it shows you don't quite cut the mustard either...Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Lewis, by taking the ouside (and I should imagine more grippy in greasy wet conditions) line, was setting himself up for the inside line at the next corner....
Sadly, he was driven off the road, and had to take avoiding action.
Then we have Kimi doing his best impression of driving home from a heavy session down the pub on the start/finnish straight.....
LOL..Oh ya I forgot you have years of racing experience..me sorry ! ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
anyway...The apex or clipping point is often used in motorsport, though other racing sports such as skiing and bicycling have similar concepts of an ideal line.
The apex is often but not always, the geometric center of the turn. Hitting the apex allows the vehicle to take the straightest line and maintain the highest speed through that specific corner. It is also the tightest part of a corner
was this the case Ioan ? the ideal way to approach this chicane was from the outside to the inside..not like Kimi did..from the inside to the outside..pushing of Lewis
on the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICKE
given that kimi forced him off the road, if he hadn't cut the chicane, he'd have been a lot closer to him.
he'd have crashed into him.
i can't see your logic. he was actually alongside him. why do you think he wouldnt' have been so close especially given it was wet and hamilton clearly had more grip in the wet than kimi?
What gives? He gained an initial advantage from cutting the chicane, lifting off the throttle or not, but he negated that advantage, intentionally or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Kimi was driving defensively, as he should've. Whats your point?
I'd rather run with ioan here, as he has given what I consider to be the most unbiased view of the whole episode here, and who has said that he would like to see the telemetry and any other evidence before passing judgment.Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
I didn't watch the race because I was at the footy yesterday where the Cats mauled the Saints, celebrated with Chandon afterwards and was too tired to stay up to watch the race. Today I went to Chadstone and bought myself my Father's Day present. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
my point is..if Lewis would have defended his position as hard as Kimi did...they both would have been out of the race
i can safely predict that, unless there is some presidential intervention, any mclaren appeal will be unsuccessful.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
the 25 second penalty is, technically, a belated drive-through penalty.
the F1 rules do not allow any recourse for appeal on a drive-through penalty.
of course, they could add some consistency and charge hamilton a few thousand quid, like they did with massa's potentially life-threatening valencia incident...
Approaching the chicane Kimi had been slower in the preceding corners. He held the defensive inside line so Lewis had two options: 1) stay behind and follow the Ferrari through or 2) take the outside line in the hope of making a pass. Watching the incident again Kimi does appear to brake earlier than Lewis expected so to an extent the choice was made for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
The outside of the first part of the chicane became the inside for the second part, but Kimi was in defensive mode again and shut the door, as he was entitled to. The problem for Lewis was he was then left with two options: 1) cut the chicane or 2) risk a collision.
Having cut the chicane Hamilton & his team were aware he may have gained an advantage, so he let Kimi regain the position. A lot has been made of the slipstream, but Lewis was slower across the start/finish line than Kimi. The only advantage Lewis had was that he was better on the brakes than Kimi into La Source.
It seems that is what the stewards penalised him for.
I wouldn't go down that road without having the slightest information about what exactly Hamilton was doing. The stewards have that info, we don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Still I'm not happy with how things are handled at this moment.
No, that's very true :up: It's all just my opinion from what I've seen on tv.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Ah the good old FIA do it again. It was bad enough Massa not getting any sort of penalty in Valencia - I notice when Bruno Senna did exactly the same thing in the GP2 race on Saturday he was penalised - but this is a ridiculous decision that has spoiled a fantastic race.
Hamilton and Raikkonen both drove brilliantly and I admire Kimi for trying everything to win, but Lewis was just better at the end fair and square. Yes he did cut the chicane (or was forced into cutting the chicane by Kimi) but he did clearly ease off and was able to let Kimi past before repassing him. It was great racing between two great drivers and doesn't deserve to end this way.
I also notice that the FIA have seemingly ignored Kimi passing Hamilton under waived yellow flags for the Rosberg incident...
I read the sporting regulations. Only the penalties are mentioned, in respect to the infractions that are detailed in the Code.
Anyone has access to this sporting Code?
What does it say about cutting the chicane?
I feel that they should make it clear what mean giving up the advantage that might have been gained in such situations. Like giving up the position and not attacking the car in front before the next corner, or something along these lines.
Could you give up on comparing apples with bannanas, and have some kind of intelligent discussion?Quote:
Originally Posted by dwboogityfan
PS: FYI GP2 isn't a FIA sanctioned series, so don't compare it to F1, and leave the FIA out of it.
Well this is the problem...right now this seems like an arbitrary penalty based on individual stewards assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
That's exactly the point some of us have been making about FIA regulations. They are worded so as to allow interpretation, and when different interpretations are made by different stewards at different races we get different decisions in similar circumstances. That undermines the credibility of what is supposed to be the pinacle of motorsport.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Following the retirement of the Permanent Steward, Tony-Scott Andrews, the FIA restructured the way the stewards operated at the beginning of this year:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64826Quote:
Rather than having a permanent steward operating alongside two designated race stewards - one international and one from the national sporting authority - the FIA has decided to now use three nominated stewards at each event.
Furthermore, the three officials who are chosen for each event will be assisted by FIA president Max Mosley's official representative Alan Donnelly - who it is hoped will manage the decision-making process more efficiently than was seen at times last year.
And in a bid to ensure total impartiality of decisions, the appointed FIA stewards at each race will be chosen from nationalities that are totally neutral - so they are not the same as any of F1's competitors.
ioan: "Could you give up on comparing apples with bannanas, and have some kind of intelligent discussion?
PS: FYI GP2 isn't a FIA sanctioned series, so don't compare it to F1, and leave the FIA out of it."
I actually think that a debate on the consistency of the sport's governing body is an intelligent discussion and an important discussion for the sporting aspect of our great sport. My main bone of contention is not Massa's lack of a penalty in Valencia but the fact that Lewis has been unfairly (and without knowledge of driving in such tricky conditions) penalised by a bunch of idiots who know nothing about the sport. The serious aspect of this discussion is that none of the three stewards making this decision have ever driven a racing car! How can they understand what is going on?
Also I think that not slowing down for yellow flags is far worse than what Lewis did. What would have happened if Kimi had piled into Rosberg's slow moving car simply because he did not slow down. We have seen in the past 5 place penalties given at the next race so I expect the FIA to do the same with Kimi seeing as though he couldn't be penalised this race. That will never happen though because he drives a Red car...
actualy if you look at this pic Lewis was a car ahead before goin into the chicane...so again what advantage he got for cutting the corner ?
http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/113066
I think the last statement by Easy Drifter was excellent at discussing how the FIA could reach such a conclusion, and if the track were dry, I would probably agree with the FIA as I said before, but as I said before, the track was NOT DRY. Set aside all this talk at favoritism and such, just look at what happenned and one can see some justification for their decision, but given the track was wet, and that there was no permanent advantage gained (as Kimi clearly later got around him) and if Kimi had not spun, would have kept it****. Of course the second spin after the first, is what did in kimi right out of the race.
*****I assume he would have kept it, unless fault was also found with his driving as he was doing his own questionable stuff, resulting in Kimi being penalized.
Regardless of whether Hamilton was dealt with harshly, or whether he deserved the penalty, this whole controversy is symptomatic of a greater problem existing with F1 circuits.
In the past, when a driver cut a corner like this, he'd get embedded in gravel or slide along the grass and into the wall, or best case scenario would have been held up and not have gained any advantage at all, whereas now more and more off-track excersions are rewarded (prior to a steward's penalty) rather than being penalised straight away.
Another thing, shortly after this both Kimi and Hamilton deliberately ran wide at a high speed corner to get the extra traction from the tarmac run-off area, very clever on both their parts, but call me old fashioned, if a driver leaves the track, he should face the consequences, and I don't mean an iffy, open-to-interpretation stewards decision.
what does this pics tells you ? one can clearly see Lewis was in front of Kimi goin into the chicane...
http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/113052