Was Lewis passing Heikki legal?

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Originally Posted by Shalafi

Of course that was a team order. Yes, he was told that Lewis was faster...what else that is, if not a team order to order Heikki to move over?! That is the way they have to say. Otherwise there would be consequences.

If it wasnt a direct order, why Heikki was furious after race and swored that is not allowed to fight? In F1 extra in MTV3 JJ Lehto and Oskari Saari told how really furious Heikki really was because of team order before he calmed down... But of course you dont have to believe it because it just happened in finnish and not english, because in Finland we dont have a queen that God will save... ;)

I dont understand about that bashing towards ioan, he is saying how it is in this case. It was a team order, it happens in F1 and its a stupid rule.

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But it's not an explicit instruction. They just told him Lewis was quicker and the onus was on Heikki.

Why was Heikki angry? Probably at himself, IMO. Partly because it wasn't an explicit team order so you can put blame on team orders but more importantly his race pace hasn't been particularly good this season and he knows it.

I think the question you should be asking is what was Heikki thinking when the team told him Lewis was quicker. From the way Heikki 'moved over' he wasn't sure whether it as full team order or not.

Yes, it's illegal, no one can justify this what happened on track. And its a race and how he let him to pass by and it seems to be very first occurence for me from since i watching race.

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Originally Posted by racecraze

Yes, it's illegal, no one can justify this what happened on track. And its a race and how he let him to pass by and it seems to be very first occurence for me from since i watching race.

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Apparently the FIA disagree with you.

Would you have the same opinion with Brazil last year I wonder?

No team will accept their drivers being hindered and the rule was brought in to stop race fixing, not stop racing.

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Originally Posted by ioan

English is the international language bla bla bla, go tell that to a French for example!

Or to a Chinese who never learned English. And the list could go on.

....

As for my English, I bet it's better than your Romanian, or any other language that it happens that I speak fluently. :laugh:

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Case and point!

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Originally Posted by Shalafi

Of course that was a team order. Yes, he was told that Lewis was faster...what else that is, if not a team order to order Heikki to move over?! That is the way they have to say. Otherwise there would be consequences.

If it wasnt a direct order, why Heikki was furious after race and swored that is not allowed to fight? In F1 extra in MTV3 JJ Lehto and Oskari Saari told how really furious Heikki really was because of team order before he calmed down... But of course you dont have to believe it because it just happened in finnish and not english, because in Finland we dont have a queen that God will save... ;)

I dont understand about that bashing towards ioan, he is saying how it is in this case. It was a team order, it happens in F1 and its a stupid rule.

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Shalafi the mistake that you, Ioan and few other are making is the assumption of a "direct order" for Heikki to move over. There's yet to be any proof, in finish, english, or any other language, that Heikki was told to move over. As many have pointed out no one is arguing the implied team order. The argument is over the proof of an explicit team order, which as of yet does not exist, in any language.

Ioan just goes on and on and on with the premises that there is an explicit order, and chooses to ignore any questions regarding the validity of his statements.

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Originally Posted by jjanicke

Shalafi the mistake that you, Ioan and few other are making is the assumption of a "direct order" for Heikki to move over. There's yet to be any proof, in finish, english, or any other language, that Heikki was told to move over. As many have pointed out no one is arguing the implied team order. The argument is over the proof of an explicit team order, which as of yet does not exist, in any language.

Ioan just goes on and on and on with the premises that there is an explicit order, and chooses to ignore any questions regarding the validity of his statements.

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Well... When Heikki after the race swored and said "Ei saa ajaa kilpaa", translation "Im not allowed to race", then that is good enough proof for me! But because people here dont believe it, I let it now be and will not write anything about this subject. Lets see what will happen this weekend, shall we...

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Originally Posted by Shalafi

Well... When Heikki after the race swored and said "Ei saa ajaa kilpaa", translation "Im not allowed to race", then that is good enough proof for me! But because people here dont believe it, I let it now be and will not write anything about this subject. Lets see what will happen this weekend, shall we...

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he could have meant it in another context...i mean different meaning rather than the literal meaning...?????

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Originally Posted by Shalafi

Well... When Heikki after the race swored and said "Ei saa ajaa kilpaa", translation "Im not allowed to race", then that is good enough proof for me! But because people here dont believe it, I let it now be and will not write anything about this subject. Lets see what will happen this weekend, shall we...

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That certainly supports the implied directive, but, IMO, doesn't make Ron or Mclaren a sneaky, two faced, back room scheming, bring the sport into disrepute, sleaze ball as Ioan would like us all to believe.

"I'm not allowed to race ."
Are we sure this is a literal translation ?

If it is , it shows clearly that this was a team order , albeit veiled by wording .

So , it was , but it wasn't .

BOTH sides of this are correct .

Now , let's stop all this rock throwing , and agree that this rule is stupid .

Stupid , stupid , stupid .

Agreed!

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Originally Posted by jjanicke

That certainly supports the implied directive, but, IMO, doesn't make Ron or Mclaren a sneaky, two faced, back room scheming, bring the sport into disrepute, sleaze ball as Ioan would like us all to believe.

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i don't know why Ioan keeps repeating this same monotonous post...atleast i've been in this forum for maybe 4 years....the same topic gets dragged all over again...

well, this has been the most civil and level headed thread I've read in years ( for the most part) and I can only echo the general sentiment that this case and Brazil 2007 are benign and perhaps even legitimate uses of such an option, where the Rubens' cases were so blatantly obvious and unsporting as to herald in the rule in the first place.

There' will always be partisans who will defend their team no matter what, or hide behind the letter of the law ( rather than the intent or spirit). I for one am glad to see a good spirited conversation without evolving tolowly bickering... for the most part :)

I say one more thing...I dont know a thing what Kubica tells to Poland press, same with Barrichello and Massa to Brazil press. But Kimi and Heikki gives tv-interviews to finnish television before EVERY race weekend, after every practise session, before and after every qualifying and race. Also when they visit Finland they occasionally give a long interview. They can speak finnish, they are more open, its not the same PR-talk that they give to international media or press releases that are not even something that they have said!! They talk a lot about their teams, competitors, team-mates etc. And most of that, almost all of that, NEVER gets to the british media in english! Its a surprise to me, if even 1 (one!) percent of what they say to MTV3 reporters goes for english in Time magazine... ;) So how it is so difficult to understand that Heikki has said something briefly to finnish reporterters after the race when he was furious and frustrated?!

Yeah... I thought so too... :)

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Originally Posted by truefan72

well, this has been the most civil and level headed thread I've read in years ( for the most part) and I can only echo the general sentiment that this case and Brazil 2007 are benign and perhaps even legitimate uses of such an option, where the Rubens' cases were so blatantly obvious and unsporting as to herald in the rule in the first place.

There' will always be partisans who will defend their team no matter what, or hide behind the letter of the law ( rather than the intent or spirit). I for one am glad to see a good spirited conversation without evolving tolowly bickering... for the most part :)

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er this community is always level headed and civil for the most part... :cheese:

talking about the formula 1 community

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Originally Posted by Shalafi

I say one more thing...I dont know a thing what Kubica tells to Poland press, same with Barrichello and Massa to Brazil press. But Kimi and Heikki gives tv-interviews to finnish television before EVERY race weekend, after every practise session, before and after every qualifying and race. Also when they visit Finland they occasionally give a long interview. They can speak finnish, they are more open, its not the same PR-talk that they give to international media or press releases that are not even something that they have said!! They talk a lot about their teams, competitors, team-mates etc. And most of that, almost all of that, NEVER gets to the british media in english! Its a surprise to me, if even 1 (one!) percent of what they say to MTV3 reporters goes for english in Time magazine... ;) So how it is so difficult to understand that Heikki has said something briefly to finnish reporterters after the race when he was furious and frustrated?!

Yeah... I thought so too... :)

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Shalafi, we live in a global community now, where everything that is said , anywhere is always available for quotes and commentary, is posted on the internet, is picked up by web crawlers, is made known of instantly the world around. If he did make such a comment, the mass media and especially the hundreds of F1 sites would picked it up, talked about it, attributed the quotes to the original source, referenced the comments etc.

If I am able to read about comments the Force India boss has said to a local Indian paper, then surely a comment by HK expressing anger over "not being allowed to race" would have been a headline in at least a dozen media outlets.

I refer you to Occam's razor
"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor )

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Originally Posted by harsha

er this community is always level headed and civil for the most part... :cheese:

talking about the formula 1 community

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yes sir :cool:

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Originally Posted by truefan72

If I am able to read about comments the Force India boss has said to a local Indian paper, then surely a comment by HK expressing anger over "not being allowed to race" would have been a headline in at least a dozen media outlets.

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Well, as you can see...this time global community wasnt as sharp as you thought... ;)

I think it may be a logical assumption that Heikki was more furious about his own performance than the team orders, because he really didn't have anything to gain with excessive blocking and would have dropped to P5 sooner or later anyway and finished there. And anyway, HK managed to keep LH behind him for longer than FM or NP. :p :

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Originally Posted by jens

.... And anyway, HK managed to keep LH behind him for longer than FM or NP. :p :

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Exactly! And I'm sure their "team orders" were "Keep him behind you" ;)

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Originally Posted by jjanicke

Exactly! And I'm sure their "team orders" were "Keep him behind you" ;)

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LOL

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Shalafi, we live in a global community now, where everything that is said , anywhere is always available for quotes and commentary, is posted on the internet, is picked up by web crawlers, is made known of instantly the world around. If he did make such a comment, the mass media and especially the hundreds of F1 sites would picked it up, talked about it, attributed the quotes to the original source, referenced the comments etc.

If I am able to read about comments the Force India boss has said to a local Indian paper, then surely a comment by HK expressing anger over "not being allowed to race" would have been a headline in at least a dozen media outlets.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor )

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Well said. Only one problem: its totally false, at least in this case. The quote has been reported by many forum members, and if its not in English, some people wont believe it.

If it smells like it, looks like it and tastes like it, it must be it. Even in Finnish. And thats not contrary to Occam´s razor, buddy.

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Originally Posted by Shalafi

I say one more thing...I dont know a thing what Kubica tells to Poland press, same with Barrichello and Massa to Brazil press. But Kimi and Heikki gives tv-interviews to finnish television before EVERY race weekend, after every practise session, before and after every qualifying and race. Also when they visit Finland they occasionally give a long interview. They can speak finnish, they are more open, its not the same PR-talk that they give to international media or press releases that are not even something that they have said!! They talk a lot about their teams, competitors, team-mates etc. And most of that, almost all of that, NEVER gets to the british media in english! Its a surprise to me, if even 1 (one!) percent of what they say to MTV3 reporters goes for english in Time magazine... ;) So how it is so difficult to understand that Heikki has said something briefly to finnish reporterters after the race when he was furious and frustrated?!

Yeah... I thought so too... :)

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:up:

Now that the elusive smoking gun has been found by the MotorsportForum Warren Commission (:rolleyes :) , what prevented Heikki from following Lewis and capturing 2nd place? What's the theory on that one?

Try to include the Mafia, the CIA or the KGB in the scenario... that will make it more fun to read. Marilyn Monroe is still dead (I think), but maybe Paris Hilton had a hand in this.

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

Now that the elusive smoking gun has been found by the MotorsportForum Warren Commission (:rolleyes :) , what prevented Heikki from following Lewis and capturing 2nd place? What's the theory on that one?

Try to include the Mafia, the CIA or the KGB in the scenario... that will make it more fun to read. Marilyn Monroe is still dead (I think), but maybe Paris Hilton had a hand in this.

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:rolleyes:
I think tht most forum members are a bit more realist than you are.

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Originally Posted by ioan

:rolleyes:
I think tht most forum members are a bit more realist than you are.

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The linguists claim that their translation and interpretation proves the claim that there were team orders. So I am just asking, if "they" didn't let him race Lewis, what stopped him from racing everyone else who finished in front of him... and behind Hamilton?

As for realism, the only thing I've learned about our fellow forum members is that some of them would have flunked out of law school after the first week.

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

Well said. Only one problem: its totally false, at least in this case. The quote has been reported by many forum members, and if its not in English, some people wont believe it.

If it smells like it, looks like it and tastes like it, it must be it. Even in Finnish. And thats not contrary to Occam´s razor, buddy.

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convenient how you left out the quote of occam's razor. which states that all things being equal the simplest answer is usually true. Which in this case is that those quotes were never said and are some lonely forum's flight of fancy.

As I said, such a quote would have been headline news the F1 world around, not just the english media. I speak french, Spanish, German and Italian, and I didn't see any of those quotes anywhere in my usual rummaging of papers and sites. If you insist on beleiving that to sleep better at night,then that's your prerogative, but don't think that 99.9% of the world and forumers here have it wrong and missed this supposed sensational quote.

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

The linguists claim that their translation and interpretation proves the claim that there were team orders. So I am just asking, if "they" didn't let him race Lewis, what stopped him from racing everyone else who finished in front of him... and behind Hamilton?

As for realism, the only thing I've learned about our fellow forum members is that some of them would have flunked out of law school after the first week.

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LOL, well said.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

convenient how you left out the quote of occam's razor. which states that all things being equal the simplest answer is usually true. Which in this case is that those quotes were never said and are some lonely forum's flight of fancy.

As I said, such a quote would have been headline news the F1 world around, not just the english media. I speak french, Spanish, German and Italian, and I didn't see any of those quotes anywhere in my usual rummaging of papers and sites. If you insist on beleiving that to sleep better at night,then that's your prerogative, but don't think that 99.9% of the world and forumers here have it wrong and missed this supposed sensational quote.

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English media to the left, english media to the right!

It's obvious that they don't speak Finnish. Or maybe you know it for a fact that they do?!

Your, and other member's, tries to mute a fact just because it wasn't reported in the English media is pathetic at least. And proves my point about the hypocrisy of many forumers.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Cue the accusations of Hekki being handicapped so Lewis looks good :laugh:

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I wrote:
Yes - this time it was ok (let LH pass).. I think Heikki did it because he hadn't any chance to keep Lewis behind him anyway.

BUT - why he was that much slower is difficult to understand? I don't believe he should be over one second behind Lewis in normal case.
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So you really think? that Lewis is a second faster than Heikki? :D

BTW - I'm quite sure that Lewis has "the first driver status" in the team :) .. and it has been that way then 2007 ... ask Alonso :) he knows… also that not every one in the team necessarily like it ..

Holy Overtaking Batman!!!

I've been on holiday in the Borders with poor internet connectivity, so have not been online in that time.

I have to say, I think I have witnessed more intelligent conversations in my Daughters Pre-School playground than in this thread.

You're all wasting your time on this subject.

:down:

Seems freddie has spoken out on the subject, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69647

Dennis added: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You could go back through the entire history of McLaren, you could talk to any driver that has driven for McLaren and you will not find anyone - save for one - who will not verify that this team always runs on the basis of equality and always will."

better make that two for the road, as I beleive lauda would strennously disagree with that, given all those certain car problems, and then the poster incident at the last race of a season where Mac clearly wanted his team mate to win.....

Here's a lovely example of "Ronspeak" which both praises Heikki and makes his feelings clear regarding Alonso:

“Heikki was not told to let Lewis pass [at Hockenheim],” Dennis said. “But when you’re in a team and you know your teammate has the opportunity to win and you don’t, if you have the right values and values that are not lodged solely and exclusively in your own motives and selfishness then you take a decision, which is to allow the driver past.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle4454345.ece

:)

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

I think everyone noticed how Heikki moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you McLaren fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

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I refer you to the Pot Vs Kettle case.

Please justify this thread in the light that Kimi Raikkonen did not fight Massa at China.

Team orders should be legal.

At this stage of the season, Kimi was always going to let Massa through and that's the way it should be.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I refer you to the Pot Vs Kettle case.

Please justify this thread in the light that Kimi Raikkonen did not fight Massa at China.

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I'm going to help our friend out, just so he doesn't look or feel bad.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by mstillhere (edited version):
I think everyone noticed how Kimi moved over and let Felipe get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Kimi was told to move over and let Felipe get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you Ferrari fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Nothing more entertaining than watching a dog try to eat his tail. :D

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

Team orders should be legal.

At this stage of the season, Kimi was always going to let Massa through and that's the way it should be.

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I agree!

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

I'm going to help our friend out, just so he doesn't look or feel bad.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by mstillhere (edited version):
I think everyone noticed how Kimi moved over and let Felipe get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Kimi was told to move over and let Felipe get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you Ferrari fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Nothing more entertaining than watching a dog try to eat his tail. :D

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Especially when people can't make the difference between "mid-season" and "end of season", as well as between "still in with a chance" and "no more mathematical chance".

Honestly, some people should think before they post.

No mathematical chance? the distance is 7 points. That gap would have been nine if Raikkonen hadn't deliberately slowed.

However, 7 points is not impoossible - 11 would be.

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

I'm going to help our friend out, just so he doesn't look or feel bad.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by mstillhere (edited version):
I think everyone noticed how Kimi moved over and let Felipe get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Kimi was told to move over and let Felipe get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you Ferrari fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Nothing more entertaining than watching a dog try to eat his tail. :D

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What goes around comes around., comes to mind.

I can't beleive you are bringing this up. What, you suffer of hypocritical sindrome? You know that's incurable, right?

After you defended Kovi letting Lewis getting by, now you are against it?
I am speechless.

I was against it mid-season and I'm against it now. I hate it in rallying especially and I don't think that it should matter when in the season it happens. It's outright cheating but sadly it's a part of the sport and we need to accept that it's going to go on. It's the sort of sneaky move that I associate most with Ron Dennis (knob) but think that it's a real shame when any team resorts to it.

But we have to ask why we find it unacceptable but would be okay if Kimi had got in front of Lewis and backed him up? Curious little sport and how we all see it isn't it :D

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

What goes around comes around., comes to mind.

I can't beleive you are bringing this up. What, you suffer of hypocritical sindrome? You know that's incurable, right?

After you defended Kovi letting Lewis getting by, now you are against it?
I am speechless.

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ROTFL :crazy:

What are you going on about man

Those were YOUR words, not his!

LOL

this is beyond surreal, the last time I saw this tpye of denial was when I told my ex-gf it was over and she still sent X-mas cards from both of us to my parents.