Farage v Clegg - EU debates.

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

I'm one of those under the impression Henners is all in all a decent bloke. I mean this !

I simply take issue with quotes like this (an opinion, not a hypothesis):
"I just take issue with people moving here from poverty stricken countries for example because our state gives them £1000 a month in benefits, access to the NHS, and a free house to live in."
and simply think this is a pretty typical example (it was from Henners, but could just as well have been from anybody else) of grossly exagerating the negative aspects of immigration.

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Well it clearly is an exaggeration but I do think that the major parties need to be seen to be tackling benefit tourism. Part of the reason many have turned to the far-right politics is because the mainstream politicians are perceived to be ignoring this very issue. The politically illiterate don't recognise the benefits of immigration so the isolated cases of foreigners coming over here and allegedly getting a free mansion become deal breakers to them.

But I do believe that Henners was much more balanced in his post and subsequent posts than you give him credit for.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

:confused: But shouldn't those who are sick of it also remember that your country used to be the biggest colonist empire and milked the resources and cheap labor of countries that never invited them there? :confused:
In a free world we should be free to go and establish wherever we want as long as we respect the local laws. Personally I would be more than happy if a "certain" segment of our population will leave this place.:devil:

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The great historian Barbara Tuchman pointed out that before WWI a person could board a train in Constantinople and arrive in London without once showing his passport..
And that he could get off the train anywhere along the way and get a job.....

All that had changed just a few years later.

It does not mean it is a "natural " way of things.

@janvanvurpa
......And here I am in the 21st century. Now there's a little problem for that route as Turkey is not an EU member but as an EU citizen I may travel from - let's say - Athens to London even without a passport, just with my ID card and I have the right to work anywhere along the way. When my country will enter the Schengen area things would be even more easier.:p

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Watch out Henners, Gadjo is feeling put out by your anti Romanian Rant

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Naaah.....His comments weren't anti Romanian and I don't have a problem with him as he's one of my fav forumers. :p As you know I don't have a good opinion on my conationals either but at the same time the arrogance of some people (esp. in british media ) towards the easteners gets on my nerves.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

and Gadjo you better not come over here or Henners and his kind will get you.

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I'm not afraid as I'm sure you'll be there to defend me. :p

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Well it clearly is an exaggeration but I do think that the major parties need to be seen to be tackling benefit tourism. Part of the reason many have turned to the far-right politics is because the mainstream politicians are perceived to be ignoring this very issue. The politically illiterate don't recognise the benefits of immigration so the isolated cases of foreigners coming over here and allegedly getting a free mansion become deal breakers to them.

But I do believe that Henners was much more balanced in his post and subsequent posts than you give him credit for.

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Thanks Jon :)

Yes I was exaggerating to a degree with my example Donkey quoted but it's also truthful in some cases and I think this is something voters want to see tackled. The media do stoke the fire by publishing extreme examples, but the fact of the matter is these examples should not exist in the first place and its our government who have created a situation that can be exploited. I am not blaming foreigners for coming here and taking advantage because I think anybody would want the best for their family and would do the same if it offered a better life. I can only speak from the point of view of a British tax payer though who partially picks up the tab.

The benefits system in this country has got completely out of hand IMO. This is largely down to UK born citizens and I live in an area that see's this type of mentality every day. People who have been out of work for 10 plus years and are comfortable in the system because no job will replace what they once had. I know a guy through a family member of my wife's that hasn't worked for 18 years because he fell into depression after losing his job in the steel works. There are jobs around but they pay £40 a week less than he can get on benefits. He used to fake his illness at every assessment and spent every day in the pub or spent weekends at his new caravan in West Wales. He had a new conservatory fitted last summer and goes on the 6 Nations rugby tour every year. He worked for friends cash-in-hand doing roofing and openly bragged about it. He's one of the happiest guys I've met and now has been shopped 'thankfully'. He now has a job and is slightly worse off than he was a few months ago and feels hard done by.

This is the problem! People have no incentive to find work in many cases because the benefits system is the easier route. We can't blame people from other countries within the EU coming here to take advantage of that and I was never laying the blame there. The government need a reform in the system, close these silly loopholes for claims going abroad and squeeze the people who are stuck in the rut. I know its easier said than done and there is no quick fix, but our present government appear to be putting far too much effort into aiding the rich and not enough into tackling the issues that are affecting the average tax payer giving away a third of their wage every month. We are now in a situation where people are protesting by voting for UKIP and that is very very worrying indeed! They need to wake up. :)

PS: Gadjo and Donks are amongst my fav's here too ;)

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

This is the politics not of people who believe in racial superiority or who are even overly patriotic, but the opinions of people who are politically illiterate.

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Its also dead-end politics given that the demographic that is most xenophobic and therefore likely to vote for UKIP, skewing mainstream politics to the right is over 65 and will by definition die out over the next couple of decades.

One hopes there will be a strong swing to the centre again over time as there will be little to gain for the political parties over time in courting the right wing vote.

But do many people not naturally move to the right when they age as the youngsters new world becomes weird and scary to them?

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

But do many people not naturally move to the right when they age as the youngsters new world becomes weird and scary to them?

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They can't avoid enthropy unless permanent big walls are built, and I don't see them lasting for ever if they were built either.


p.s. @Henns: big donkey hug :kiss: :sailor: I really wasn't getting at you personally or at the rest of your posts, just at the link between inmigration and the benefits system. It's one of my pet peeves, similar to newspapers mentioning the race or origin of a criminal as an epithet only when they're not local. :)

The very people who are voting for UKIP are the same as would move to the Costa del sol or Palmanova, buy an apartment and work in a bar to get by, not realising that that would make them EU migration workers. Check out the stats on the number of British expats living and working elsewhere in the EU and then tell me there is an immigration problem in the UK.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

But do many people not naturally move to the right when they age as the youngsters new world becomes weird and scary to them?

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On many issues like taxation I guess they do, but I think the swing towards being accepting of foreigners in those who are 40 or below is permanent. I don't see people in this demographic changing their attitude much but I might be wrong.