schumi's wonderful career

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Originally Posted by jens

DC gave up the wins of Jerez'97, Melbourne'98. Perhaps also Hockenheim'98. I remember Häkkinen had an oil leak late in the race, but DC didn't try to overtake him. I think DC was also ordered to stay behind Räikkönen in Japan'03 all race and finished right behind him. This one didn't cost him a win though.

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Jerez 97, Hakkinen was the faster car, and DC didn't make it easy for him, but eventually let him go. It was the last race of the season, and they weren't disadvantaging DC, but simply wanting their two cars to finish. Teams have always asked their drivers to hold position to avoid collisions. This was also much less slimy than Hill asking Jordan to tell Ralf not to overtake. Melbourne 98 was an agreement between DC and Hakkinen, because their cars were so dominant, that whoever was first into the first corner, will be the victor. Hockenheim 98 IIRC, Mika was short fueled and so was cruising, and it was much later in the season when Mika was much ahead in points compared to DC, and fighting for the WDC against Michael.

None of these can be compared to Austria 2002 or Rubens' whole stint at Ferrari, where he had to pretty much act as a wingman/lapdog and was never allowed to challenge MS. Au contraire, DC and Mika were allowed to fight on-track and had many close moments and coming togethers. Remember Austria 1999 when DC took Mika out? Was Rubens ever allowed to race MS this close? The answer is no.

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Originally Posted by jens

How can you be so sure about that? I thought F1 drivers are very much hard-working and living a disciplined life.

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To answer that question, you'd have to learn and read up a lot about MMA, even watch a documentary about it. I never said F1 drivers weren't hard working. They're some of the best athletes on the planet, but they don't have to work at each aspect of their body as an MMA athlete has to, because of the aspects that affect them during a fight. Yes, F1 drivers have to be ultra fit, but they don't have to turn their body into a weapon.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

To answer that question, you'd have to learn and read up a lot about MMA, even watch a documentary about it. I never said F1 drivers weren't hard working. They're some of the best athletes on the planet, but they don't have to work at each aspect of their body as an MMA athlete has to, because of the aspects that affect them during a fight. Yes, F1 drivers have to be ultra fit, but they don't have to turn their body into a weapon.

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Captain Raiden can you bring about comparisons between F1 drivers and Chess players tomo? or how about some comparisons with swimmers?

As ridiculous as it gets, we cant compare drivers from different motorsports because of the difference in machinery and your comparing something completely different. I understand your pure bs bias, but atleast try to make sense.

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Originally Posted by i_max2k2

Captain Raiden can you bring about comparisons between F1 drivers and Chess players tomo? or how about some comparisons with swimmers?

As ridiculous as it gets, we cant compare drivers from different motorsports because of the difference in machinery and your comparing something completely different. I understand your pure bs bias, but atleast try to make sense.

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What does chess have to do with F1 and MMA? Did you even read anything that I wrote? Do you understand the distinction that what we're comparing is not the sport but athletes, athletic endurance and reflexes? Go back and read what I wrote. Damon Hill won his 1996 championship at age 36, and was quite competitive until his retirement. Prost won his WDC at age 39. Barrichello gave Button a run for his money mid-season in 2009. Nigel Mansell won his F1 championship at age 39 and Indycar WDC at age 40. Schumacher is only two years older, and suddenly he's too old?

People who have been athletes all their life don't start to see a major drop in performance, endurance and stamina until in their late 40s, for ex. 48, 49. This I know for a fact. There have been many athletes who have done good even up to the ages of 46 in sports which require strong athletic performance. The only factor different in F1 is g-forces, but those didn't seem to affect an athlete as unfit as Mansell at 40, did it?

I know Schumi fanboys have a very convenient excuse whenever he's not doing good. Oh he's too old for F1. But when he does good, like how they like to bring up Canada this year, it's the Schumi of old, and now it's a superhuman effort that he's starting to match Barbie. But then he finished half a minute behind Barbie at Abu Dhabi. Truth is Nico Rosberg is just a better driver, period. The ship has sailed for MS and he's just wasting a good seat.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

What does chess have to do with F1 and MMA? Did you even read anything that I wrote? Do you understand the distinction that what we're comparing is not the sport but athletes, athletic endurance and reflexes? Go back and read what I wrote. Damon Hill won his 1996 championship at age 36, and was quite competitive until his retirement. Prost won his WDC at age 39. Barrichello gave Button a run for his money mid-season in 2009. Nigel Mansell won his F1 championship at age 39 and Indycar WDC at age 40. Schumacher is only two years older, and suddenly he's too old?

People who have been athletes all their life don't start to see a major drop in performance, endurance and stamina until in their late 40s, for ex. 48, 49. This I know for a fact. There have been many athletes who have done good even up to the ages of 46 in sports which require strong athletic performance. The only factor different in F1 is g-forces, but those didn't seem to affect an athlete as unfit as Mansell at 40, did it?

I know Schumi fanboys have a very convenient excuse whenever he's not doing good. Oh he's too old for F1. But when he does good, like how they like to bring up Canada this year, it's the Schumi of old, and now it's a superhuman effort that he's starting to match Barbie. But then he finished half a minute behind Barbie at Abu Dhabi. Truth is Nico Rosberg is just a better driver, period. The ship has sailed for MS and he's just wasting a good seat.

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You're conveniently ignoring that Schumacher went for 3 years of retirement. During these years his training laxed, he put on weight, somewhere in the order of 9Kg if memory serves me, and he did not race much except for the odd bit of karting here and there. Whether you want to believe it or not, 42 years old is well past a persons prime. Reaction time slows down, eyesight may not be as good e.g. Schumi had perfect vision most of his career but had to get his eyesight tested as it's not as good as before. There are a lot of small differences which, while travelling at 200mph, will have a big impact. Just because a fat Mansell was able to drive at 40 years of age doesn't mean he was as good as he was at 30, nor does it mean the same should apply to Schumi. All these comparisons between MMA and different drivers of another era are total rubbish.

Schumacher hasn't been the same driver since his retirement, that much is obvious. This year there have been one or two performances where he took it to the next level, he just hasn't been able to maintain it. Qualifying is his main deficit to Rosberg. I'll be the first to admit I am disappointed with his performances since his comeback on the whole, he hasn't done well. Yes, Nico is the better driver now overall. I don't know how much of the gap in Abu Dhabi can be attributed to by Schumacher's car issues but either way he got his ass handed to him just like Nico got his ass handed to him in Canada and in Spa.

The ship may have sailed and he may not be as good as he used to be, but he is still amongst the top ten drivers in the world. That isn't bad at all for a guy of 42 that took 3 years retirement.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

You're conveniently ignoring that Schumacher went for 3 years of retirement. During these years his training laxed, he put on weight, somewhere in the order of 9Kg if memory serves me, and he did not race much except for the odd bit of karting here and there.

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Nope, that is a bit wrong. He drove the F2007, and then tested Ferrari's 2008 car extensively, putting in IIRC hundreds of laps. He also was riding a Ducati in the German superbike championship, where he injured his neck. And I might be completely wrong here, but he also drove a DTM car. 9 kilos is like chump change to lose for especially great athletes like Schumacher. :p

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Whether you want to believe it or not, 42 years old is well past a persons prime. Reaction time slows down, eyesight may not be as good e.g. Schumi had perfect vision most of his career but had to get his eyesight tested as it's not as good as before. There are a lot of small differences which, while travelling at 200mph, will have a big impact. Just because a fat Mansell was able to drive at 40 years of age doesn't mean he was as good as he was at 30, nor does it mean the same should apply to Schumi.

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While I agree that an athlete's prime period is in his 30s, they're not completely useless in their early 40s either.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

All these comparisons between MMA and different drivers of another era are total rubbish.

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I'm repeating myself again, the comparison is about athletic performance. But you can go ahead and call it rubbish as long as it doesn't agree with your opinion. The fact of the matter is that Mercedes would have done a complete health and fitness check before allowing MS to race again. They don't want an old has-been finishing 24th now, do they? So, MS was obviously good enough when he came back.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Schumacher hasn't been the same driver since his retirement, that much is obvious.

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How do we know that? How is that obvious? Are you assuming the Mercedes is the same car as the Ferrari in 2006? There is no way to compare this. Cold hard truth is that Nico is beating him, albeit not as convincingly as in 2010.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

This year there have been one or two performances where he took it to the next level, he just hasn't been able to maintain it. Qualifying is his main deficit to Rosberg. I'll be the first to admit I am disappointed with his performances since his comeback on the whole, he hasn't done well. Yes, Nico is the better driver now overall. I don't know how much of the gap in Abu Dhabi can be attributed to by Schumacher's car issues but either way he got his ass handed to him just like Nico got his ass handed to him in Canada and in Spa.

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The "ass handing" has been mutual, :p and spread out over two years, Nico has handed the aforementioned posterior more times to MS. But again, there is this contradiction of when he's doing well, he's bringing it to the "next level" or doing a superhuman effort, and when he's doing bad, it's his age. Why can't we agree that Nico in equal machinery and no team orders is proving to be a handful for Michael, and he's struggling to match him, but he has started to match him lately with some sporadic good performances, which is him being comfortable with the car at certain tracks and not some "next level" or superhuman effort. Time away from F1 is a better excuse than age IMO.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

The ship may have sailed and he may not be as good as he used to be, but he is still amongst the top ten drivers in the world. That isn't bad at all for a guy of 42 that took 3 years retirement.

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For the sake of ending this argument, I'll half-heartedly agree with that. :p

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

While I agree that an athlete's prime period is in his 30s, they're not completely useless in their early 40s either.

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Wrong old Captain! The average males prime years are 18 - 35. After that you start losing physical strength, stamina, reactions, eyesight, hearing etc. Besides the likes of golfers and bowls players, why do you think most professional sportmen retire at around 35? This has been scientifically proven by numerous sports doctors and specialsts.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Nope, that is a bit wrong. He drove the F2007, and then tested Ferrari's 2008 car extensively, putting in IIRC hundreds of laps. He also was riding a Ducati in the German superbike championship, where he injured his neck. And I might be completely wrong here, but he also drove a DTM car. 9 kilos is like chump change to lose for especially great athletes like Schumacher. :p

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The testing your mentioning here is sporadic at best. If I remember he did a weeks testing in the F2008 but that was it. He only did one days testing of the F2007 where he finished top of the session with a time 6 tenth of a second quicker than anyone else. That was his first time driving in a year. DC was at that test with RBR and he was more than slightly impressed.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

I'm repeating myself again, the comparison is about athletic performance. But you can go ahead and call it rubbish as long as it doesn't agree with your opinion. The fact of the matter is that Mercedes would have done a complete health and fitness check before allowing MS to race again. They don't want an old has-been finishing 24th now, do they? So, MS was obviously good enough when he came back.

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Of course yes, there would have been a complete health and fitness check and he passed it but he would have always passed these with ease.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

How do we know that? How is that obvious? Are you assuming the Mercedes is the same car as the Ferrari in 2006? There is no way to compare this. Cold hard truth is that Nico is beating him, albeit not as convincingly as in 2010.

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I agree with that. But drivers improve and disimprove over time. As I say, my opinion is that the real crux of the argument is that he took 3 years off. I don't believe his fitness to be as big of an issue as some make it out to be but it certainly would play a small part in terms of reaction time.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

The "ass handing" has been mutual, :p and spread out over two years, Nico has handed the aforementioned posterior more times to MS. But again, there is this contradiction of when he's doing well, he's bringing it to the "next level" or doing a superhuman effort, and when he's doing bad, it's his age. Why can't we agree that Nico in equal machinery and no team orders is proving to be a handful for Michael, and he's struggling to match him, but he has started to match him lately with some sporadic good performances, which is him being comfortable with the car at certain tracks and not some "next level" or superhuman effort. Time away from F1 is a better excuse than age IMO.



For the sake of ending this argument, I'll half-heartedly agree with that. :p

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Well, clearly when he is doing well and thrashing his teammate Rosberg then he has taken it to another level, if he hadn't then he wouldn't be beating him, but the issue appears that he can't do that consistently. I don't see what your issue is with people pointing this out? We could argue about this ad nauseum, but there is no way of knowing if Schumacher really would be beating Nico were they teammates in his prime. We can only guess that he would be considering he thrashed all his other teammates. I would also say that "him being comfortable with the car" is all part of him bringing it to the next level. There is nothing superhuman about this, it's just that sometimes it is working out and others it isn't. There is a clear trend of improvement throughout this year. Whether he can ever beat Nico remains to be seen however.

Overall though, I am very impressed with the Schu Meister and his will to improve. It has been disappointing that he hasn't beaten Nico regularly, or hardly at all, but in general, I think this year is a big improvement on last and if he can keep that trend going, he may very well be level with him next year. To be honest, I think there are very few former F1 drivers that could be doing what he is doing at the age of 42.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Wrong old Captain! The average males prime years are 18 - 35. After that you start losing physical strength, stamina, reactions, eyesight, hearing etc. Besides the likes of golfers and bowls players, why do you think most professional sportmen retire at around 35? This has been scientifically proven by numerous sports doctors and specialsts.

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Well, that's debatable. Usain Bolt is breaking world records at his age of 25, but I remember Michael Johnson saying in some interview that he's yet to reach his athletic prime, and that's the scary part. From as long as I've been following MMA, coaches, doctors, nutritionists and fighters themselves have said they reach their athletic peak somewhere after 26 and it starts to decline after 36. The best MMA fighter in the world right now is 36, and Mansell won his last world title at 40, so as long as the skill is there, it works, even though they might lack in the stamina department.

If people say that MS is way past his prime at 42, and his time away from F1 is a huge factor, then every time he's outqualifying or outracing Nico, he's doing something superhuman, way beyond his capability or what his body can do, and something which goes beyond science and everything that makes sense. Do you guys actually believe that?

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

If people say that MS is way past his prime at 42, and his time away from F1 is a huge factor, then every time he's outqualifying or outracing Nico, he's doing something superhuman, way beyond his capability or what his body can do, and something which goes beyond science and everything that makes sense. Do you guys actually believe that?

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OR that Nico Rosberg is so useless that he can't even beat an out of prime, out of practice, fat, almost blind has-been, in which case Mercedes are getting seriously shortchanged in terms of the quality of drivers they can get, isn't it? That car could be a world beater! :p

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Well, that's debatable. Usain Bolt is breaking world records at his age of 25, but I remember Michael Johnson saying in some interview that he's yet to reach his athletic prime, and that's the scary part. From as long as I've been following MMA, coaches, doctors, nutritionists and fighters themselves have said they reach their athletic peak somewhere after 26 and it starts to decline after 36. The best MMA fighter in the world right now is 36, and Mansell won his last world title at 40, so as long as the skill is there, it works, even though they might lack in the stamina department.

If people say that MS is way past his prime at 42, and his time away from F1 is a huge factor, then every time he's outqualifying or outracing Nico, he's doing something superhuman, way beyond his capability or what his body can do, and something which goes beyond science and everything that makes sense. Do you guys actually believe that?

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As I said, the average male's prime is between 18 and 35. Each person is different so we all peak at different points during these years mentally, physically and sexually. Sexually, it's all down hill for us boys from about 21 onwards. Physically, we start the downward travel around 35 some earlier. Mentally, we are not able to absorb information and make decisions as quickly as we did when we are 35 compared to when we are 25 for example.

There is the occassional freak that breaks this mould, but 99% of us fit this profile. As for The Shoe outqualifying or beating Nico sometimes, even old dogs have the odd good day, and young bucks also have some bad days :)