2011 MotoGP Jerez

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6th April 2011, 02:59
The Phantom

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

So, if someone comes to apologize to you for an honest mistake, you would mock them...

Well that depends on what sort of history I had with that person.

Stoner, more than anyone, knew that Rossi should not have tried such a rash move on the Ducati, but more importantly Stoner knew that Rossi knew he should not have tried it. Let's say Lorenzo had done it to Stoner. Stoner would think 'Well, that's not normal for the M1 to do that, so just one of those things". But the Ducati does do that on a regular basis, and Rossi knows it, and Stoner knew it.

He has a right to expect more from Rossi. If you are going to put your life in your fellow riders hands, as you do each time you are alongside him at 275km/h, you really need your faith to be repaid.
6th April 2011, 04:57
larantuka

Great to see this discussion is getting warm with more various opinions.

I think if Rossi has asked apologies, never ever try to twist over by taking advantage he is close to media that it was Stoner's fault, publicly and in private, it means Rossi has acknowledged his mistake and Stoner just needs to accept it. Nothing can change and restore the incident that happened already.

However it's great regret, I can understand if Stoner came with responses slightly improperly. He can continue the race, in the incident his bike was on top of Rossi's and may have less damage, but marshals were more focus helping Rossi that put him more in bad mood and decided not to continue the race.

It may take times for Stoner for mental recovery, the only good way is forget the incident totally and just focusing on the next coming races. The race was only two rounds started off. We don't hope to see another Gibe which was never back on form after having problem with Rossi.
6th April 2011, 08:22
MrJan

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

And really, how can you state that Stoner is not the prime title contendor, considering his pre-season form, two from two poles, and dominant win at Qatar? Who else has shown that level of performance for the 2011 season? And let's not forget that Stoner himself has stated that there is plenty more to come from the Honda, and he is not one to grandstand.

I'd say that George is looking the most likely, tbh. Yamaha will begin to catch up and he's a lot more reliable than Stoner, in as much as he doesn't fall off as often and if he has a bad race he still seems to end up on the podium, unlike Stoner who will have a bad race and finish 6th or so. Much as I hate to admit it, because he's a penis, I think that Lorenzo will actually be the man to beat purely because of his consistency.
6th April 2011, 10:24
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Seb, what I was alluding to when I mentioned that other riders don't see Rossi as the fun-loving huggable bear his fans do, is that you need to view Stoner's reaction in the context of that. Stoner's reaction to the showboating apology is more than likely coloured by his far deeper knowledge of Rossi's character than any of his fans could possibly have, if that makes sense.

To put it another way, and I know the analog doesn't replicate the incident but look at the intent behind the analogy - if a kid bullies another kid at school in private, then gets caught doing it, and apologises to the kid - do you think that kid is going to take the apology on face value? Or dismiss it as a waste of breath?

We don't see all of Rossi's tricks and mindgames, but the riders sharing the track and the garages do. They have a very different take on Rossi. Stoner, being a guy who is prepared to speak his mind (or whinge, if you are a Rossi fanboi), simply made it clear just how much value can be attached to Rossi's apology. In fact I reckon Stoner's mindset at the time was on Rossi's pattern of behaviour as a whole, rather than just that one incident.

To be honest, the only two current riders who have problems with Rossi are Lorenzo and Stoner. And with Stoner, it was all fine and dandy until Laguna Seca 2008, from which point on it all went downhill, because Stoner just couldn't accept the fact that he was beaten fair and square. Rossi didn't do anything illegal that day. Also, after that race, Stoner crashed twice when Rossi was putting pressure on him, while he was fastest during testing and practice. Rossi beat Stoner in 2008 simply by pressuring him, putting him in scenarios where he's uncomfortable, and Stoner cracked, and it seems he's still emotionally affected by Rossi. With Lorenzo, it was the obvious intra-team politics that soured their relationship, which worsened further when Rossi put the same pressure on Lorenzo as well, and he cracked, i.e. crash in Jerez 2009 and the crushing last lap defeat at Barcelona. On the other hand, Pedrosa, Hayden, Edwards, Dovizioso, Capirossi, Barros, Elias etc. have all been in battle with Rossi and say only nice things. Toni Elias took Rossi out of a race TWICE in 2006, and even beat him to the line at Estoril in 2006, but their relationship has never soured.

Also, you talk about Rossi and Stoner as if Rossi is the big bully and Stoner is the victim. In reality it's nothing like that. They're simply arch rivals on competitive machinery, have been in the last 4 years. They're competitors and nobody is bullying anyone. If you think playing mind games is bullying, then you really don't know what real bullying is. With these weird cheap shots, Stoner is only showing that he's still affected by Rossi's mind games. He needs to learn to be bigger than all of this, and be normal, beat Rossi on track and become the champion again convincingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

And really, how can you state that Stoner is not the prime title contendor, considering his pre-season form, two from two poles, and dominant win at Qatar? Who else has shown that level of performance for the 2011 season? And let's not forget that Stoner himself has stated that there is plenty more to come from the Honda, and he is not one to grandstand.

Only two races, buddy. There are still 18 races to go. At this point, yeah, you could say Stoner has a chance, but so does Marc Marquez in Moto2. So, saying that Stoner's crash was more important than Marquez and Cluzel's, is a bit shortsighted I would say.
6th April 2011, 10:37
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Well that depends on what sort of history I had with that person.

Stoner, more than anyone, knew that Rossi should not have tried such a rash move on the Ducati, but more importantly Stoner knew that Rossi knew he should not have tried it. Let's say Lorenzo had done it to Stoner. Stoner would think 'Well, that's not normal for the M1 to do that, so just one of those things". But the Ducati does do that on a regular basis, and Rossi knows it, and Stoner knew it.

What are you talking about? This is racing, and to quote the great Senna again, even though it was in F1 terms:

Quote:

By being a racing driver you are under risk all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, competing to win. And the main motivation is to compete for victory, it’s not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. I race to win as long as I feel it’s possible. Sometimes you get it wrong? Sure, it’s impossible to get it right all the time. But I race designed to win, as long as I feel I’m doing it right.

So, he obviously went for a gap which was there. What he didn't realize was that while he is amazing on brakes, Stoner is no slouch either. Stoner braked really late, Rossi braked later, went in too hot, and the inevitable happened. Was it brave? Yes. Was it stupid? Definitely. Should Rossi have been more patient? A resounding YES by fans and non-fans! BUT his instinct told him to go for it, and he went for it. It's just that it didn't serve him right this time. You don't become a 7 time world champion by being stupid. Obviously he knows the Ducati's limits, since he's riding it and we're not, and he knew he could do it, and so went for it. What happened was unfortunate and 100% his fault, but it was still a racing incident. He didn't try to "take out" Stoner in the second race of the season, with the chance of Ducati's only victory ahead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

He has a right to expect more from Rossi. If you are going to put your life in your fellow riders hands, as you do each time you are alongside him at 275km/h, you really need your faith to be repaid.

Please don't exaggerate things. It was a 1st gear corner, and they were doing hardly 80 KPH. Neither of their bikes even took any big damage. It was nowhere near what Simoncelli did to Barbera a few years ago at Mugello, where he tried to break the tow at 250 KPH, which catapulted Barbera, and could have been devastating. There have been worse accidents in motorcycle racing.
6th April 2011, 10:40
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderbolt

bring back the law where no outside assistance can be given to a rider

Should Valentino Rossi be penalised for his collision with Casey Stoner?
in any other motorsport he would have got a drive thru penalty

I think it was definitely Rossi's fault 100%, and probably he should have been given a drive through or a time penalty. I'm sure he would have accepted that.
6th April 2011, 13:37
The Phantom

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

To be honest, the only two current riders who have problems with Rossi are Lorenzo and Stoner. And with Stoner, it was all fine and dandy until Laguna Seca 2008, from which point on it all went downhill, because Stoner just couldn't accept the fact that he was beaten fair and square. Rossi didn't do anything illegal that day. Also, after that race, Stoner crashed twice when Rossi was putting pressure on him, while he was fastest during testing and practice.

It completely amazes me that although it is now common knowledge that pretty much all of Stoners crashes on the Duc can be attributed to the shocking front end it has, there is still talk of Stoner being a serial crasher due to lack of talent, and pressure from Rossi. Completely amazes me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Also, you talk about Rossi and Stoner as if Rossi is the big bully and Stoner is the victim.

See, even though I specifically stated that you needed to take the intent of my analogy, rather than the subject, you could not do that. This is why people generally don't bother getting into discussions with you. This is certainly the last time I will bother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Only two races, buddy. There are still 18 races to go. At this point, yeah, you could say Stoner has a chance, but so does Marc Marquez in Moto2. So, saying that Stoner's crash was more important than Marquez and Cluzel's, is a bit shortsighted I would say.

How's Marquez's pre-season form been? Was he on pole at Qatar and Jerez? Is he on the top bike in the field? Has he already got the runs on the board? Taken the most wins since the inception of Moto2? One title to his name already? Give me a break. I'd never even heard of him before Qatar and now I'm learning that he is suddenly the prime Moto2 contender; he must be simply incredible.

Another post suggests Lorenzo as prime contender - maybe now, sure. But at the time Stoner was knocked off his bike, Lorenzo was the second most likely, not the most likely; once again the point I made was completely missed/ignored and I'm given another reason to not bother getting into discussions here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Stoner braked really late

Stoner braked really late in the Rossi Fanboi Universe. In the real world, he was taking it easy and said he heard Rossi there and gave him room. This is born out by a simple viewing of footage of the incident. Stoner was cruising at the time which makes Rossi's stupid lunge even more stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Please don't exaggerate things. It was a 1st gear corner, and they were doing hardly 80 KPH.

Well no **** Sherlock. A rational mind would see that what I wrote was generalising, but the point is exactly the same - Rossi failed to repay Stoner's faith in his ability to pass without wiping him out.

The sad thing about this is that it is likely the start of a sad and inglorious end to a glorious career - but nevermind, we have Marc Marquez to look forward to!
6th April 2011, 17:59
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

It completely amazes me that although it is now common knowledge that pretty much all of Stoners crashes on the Duc can be attributed to the shocking front end it has, there is still talk of Stoner being a serial crasher due to lack of talent, and pressure from Rossi. Completely amazes me.

Oh yes, that is why he came into Laguna Seca riding on a three win streak and two podiums, was fastest by 1.5 seconds in practice, made a mistake in the race, crashed, then right after that race, crashed at Brno and Misano. All the while, not crashing even ONCE during the three days of mid-year Brno testing, doing 150+ laps, topped all sessions, where his times were the same as in qualifying, again, without crashing even once. And in the race he crashed as soon as Rossi overtook 2nd, and they showed Rossi's name on the pit board. That was within the first 10 laps if I remember correctly. Surely, no pressure, it's ONLY the front end. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

See, even though I specifically stated that you needed to take the intent of my analogy, rather than the subject, you could not do that. This is why people generally don't bother getting into discussions with you. This is certainly the last time I will bother.

I didn't resort to personal insults. But please, do go on. Also, talk for yourself, not for "other people".

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

How's Marquez's pre-season form been? Was he on pole at Qatar and Jerez? Is he on the top bike in the field? Has he already got the runs on the board? Taken the most wins since the inception of Moto2? One title to his name already? Give me a break. I'd never even heard of him before Qatar and now I'm learning that he is suddenly the prime Moto2 contender; he must be simply incredible.

Who do you have to blame for your ignorance now? Marc Marquez is the reigning World 125 cc champion, where he blasted his closest competitors on factory Aprilias with 10 victories in 2010, whereas his teammate on the same Derbi, finished 7th in the championship. This was arguably more impressive than both Pedrosa and Lorenzo's 125 campaign, whom probably you would have slagged as well as being a nobody. Also much more impressive than Toni Elias, Andrea Iannone and Stefan Bradl's 125 days. Also, if you cared to look, Marquez either topped the pre season Moto2 testing or was at least second. He qualified 2nd on the grid for Qatar and 4th for Jerez, and these are only 2 races in his Moto2 career. Also, he's riding a Suter chassis bike, which was one of the most successful Moto2 bikes of 2010, also the bike on which Andrea Iannone won with in Jerez. Granted this is his first year, but he's an exceptional talent, and with 18 races to go, anyone with half a brain, or someone who knows, would bet that Marquez still has a pretty good shot at the title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Another post suggests Lorenzo as prime contender - maybe now, sure. But at the time Stoner was knocked off his bike, Lorenzo was the second most likely, not the most likely; once again the point I made was completely missed/ignored and I'm given another reason to not bother getting into discussions here.

Then why bother? Go back to hugging Ant West and Stoner nuts, as this is what really goes on in the "Motorcycle Racing" forum and anybody with a different view has to deal with a bunch of angry partisan Aussies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Stoner braked really late in the Rossi Fanboi Universe. In the real world, he was taking it easy and said he heard Rossi there and gave him room. This is born out by a simple viewing of footage of the incident. Stoner was cruising at the time which makes Rossi's stupid lunge even more stupid.

Heh, just rewatched the move, and Stoner DID brake really late, and gave Rossi hardly any room, at which point Rossi stupidly tried to squeeze through and made the error. Rossi should have backed off and tried it later. Just watch Rossi's pass on Lorenzo and then on Stoner and compare them, you'll get the answer. Taking easy my ass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Well no **** Sherlock. A rational mind would see that what I wrote was generalising, but the point is exactly the same - Rossi failed to repay Stoner's faith in his ability to pass without wiping him out.

What the heck are you on about, repay faith, blah blah. That was a clear racing incident. It wasn't intentional, so the "wiping him out" comment is ridiculous. Rossi has passed countless riders on his way to 7 championships in the last decade, including your princess several times, how many people has he "wiped out"? And before you go on, please, Rossi knows what the Ducati can or cannot do after having ridden it all throughout pre-season testing and 2 races now. Armchair experts don't need to tell him whether he should try overtaking or not because of the suspect front end. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

The sad thing about this is that it is likely the start of a sad and inglorious end to a glorious career - but nevermind, we have Marc Marquez to look forward to!

Wow, counting our chickens before they hatch, are we? Rossi could still win it this year, and don't be too shocked when Marquez makes it to MotoGP.
7th April 2011, 00:27
patnicholls

A good pic I spotted on Twitter:

http://twitpic.com/4gubm9
7th April 2011, 01:50
The Phantom

Well there you go - red herrings make excellent bait.

learn something new every day...

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