What is wrong with some people? A story from Uganda

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Originally Posted by GridGirl

I have lesbian cousin who is accepted by the family. She and her now wife got married on a beach in Scotland in August. We didn't go but that was only because they wanted a quiet wedding. It was so low key that the only people who saw it was themselves, the minister and their two witnesses. My cousin had male partners before she came out. She seems happy althogh I do tend to think that the new puppy they have recently purchased is a baby substitute of sorts. C'est la vie.

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the most shocking thing about this post - They have beaches in Scotland?!!?!

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

What happened in Copenhagen is purely political, namely due to China not wishing to be shackled in any way and finding a very convenient person to take the blame in Obama. It had nothing to do with science.

My suggestion that being gay is a result of maternal hormonal imbalances during particular periods of gestation (not genetic) is one that is born out by autopsy studies of gay males compared to heterosexual males and females, and studies of maternal hormone levels. The evidence behind that is quite a lot stronger than yours which appears to be merely anecdotal.

Re: AIDS, statistics show that over 90% of people who contract it are heterosexual. Based on that its a little difficult to claim its a gay disease isn't it?

The reason I find your suggestion that AIDS is a 'gay' disease offensive is that that kind of complacency among straight men makes them vulnerable as they don't take the same precaution. That is why most people who get AIDS now are straight. Ultimately that ignorance costs unnecessary lives. Pointless isn't it.

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Observation in some, half, or most, combined with hypothesis does not constitute absolute fact or cause. It represents another potential branch of the tree. What would you like to go into next? The majority of homosexuals have brown eyes, therefore... give me a break. I am equally amazed that even one you absolutely refuses to believe that a human being could choose homosexuality simply because they like it. What is that based upon?

Go back to 1970 and see how many diagnosed mental disorders were accepted then and see how many are accepted now. Somebody figured out there is big money in making excuses for those that don't behave like the majority and "treating" them for their disorder(s).

As for AIDS, I think most would agree that it's intial introduction and spred was through the gay community. Any thinking person should have realized immediately how quickly it was going to spred into the addict community and then heterosexual community. If I somehow gave you the impression that I believe AIDS to be a strictly homosexual disease spred only by homosexuals then I will apologize for that although I don't recall being that specific.

But this is not about what Fiero thinks or believes, it is about what Uganda thinks and believes and although I haven't read any of it, I'd bet fousto's life that within the legislation AIDS and or HIV are mentioned.

Here's a suggestion, instead of busting my chops about what you think I believe, go have an informative chat with the Ugandan Ambassador nearest you and enlighten him as to the cause and effect of their problem.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

I am equally amazed that even one you absolutely refuses to believe that a human being could choose homosexuality simply because they like it. What is that based upon?

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Jesus wept.

If someone likes indulging in homosexual acts then they are gay!

The beaches in Scotland are some of the best in the world IMO. The climate however, is not!

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Originally Posted by Robinho

the most shocking thing about this post - They have beaches in Scotland?!!?!

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yes about 300 miles of them...

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Originally Posted by henners88

The HIV virus was originally discovered in Africa in 1940. The first known AIDS victim was recorded in 1959, and it is known that the HIV virus mutated from the SIV virus only found in monkey's. It is not known how this virus was transferred but there is the obvious theory of course. The virus is originally from the animal kingdom and has found its way into the human race, and is not an illness born in the Gay comunity. It was thought to have been spread through blood storage and transfusions performed in Africa in the late 1950's and its partial spread is known to be blamed on unprotected sex in both sexual origins. I think media attention on famous gay celebrities who have contracted the virus have helped to create this myth that it is a homosexual desease. People like Rock Hudson and Freddie Mercury are the most famous of course, and this has only helped sculpt this public opinion.

I would like to see more awareness of this carried out in schools as there is clearly a huge lack of understanding on the subject.

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Henners, Where I think Fiero is making his case is that it was through the great losses in the Gay community that we became more aware of AIDS. The Gay community IS more suceptable to the transmission of aids (gay males by "gay") because of the nature of the sexual contact. It is the most risky behaviour for this disease transmission UNLESS precautions are taken. Once THAT happens and did, the Gay community have this under control. They learned. Hetero's tend to be suceptable under the "it cant happen to me theory"...and we know how well THAT works.

I suspect Fiero's point is the Ugandans are just as likely having this draconian law to stop AIDS ( that is their theory, not mine), and when you consider the spread of AIDS in Africa, they are likely desparate to stop it. Too bad they are missing the greatest spread of it through Hetero populations, but that is to their discredit. Still doesn't change the fact they feel like they do, and it is their country.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I defer to you on the Maternal hormonal imbalance theory but I would be curious to know what causes then that imbalance, and why a family could have 3 tough hetero kids and one gay one? Interesting.....

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Basically the structure of the brain is laid out early in the fetus' development, and the structure differs between males and females. The strongest factor by far in deciding the brain structure is the sex of the fetus, but it looks like there is some sensitivity to maternal hormones, if the levels are altered (ie higher than normal oestrogen for male fetus' and testosterone for female ones) then there is a chance the baby may go on to become gay. How can those hormone levels go askew? No idea I'm afraid.

This isn't the only factor of course, events during childhood and adolescence can also have a strong influence.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

I am equally amazed that even one you absolutely refuses to believe that a human being could choose homosexuality simply because they like it. What is that based upon?

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Of course people become gay because they like it, as far as I'm aware noone has been forced to become gay against their will (gay rape excepted of course). Equally, the fact that I like women makes me straight. That doesn't explain why gay people prefer same sex and straight people prefer the other. Saying that gay people are gay because they like it is a statement of the obvious, not an explanation for why they are gay and more importantly whether its a choice born of free will or whether they are wired that way.

That last point is the most important one, if it is a choice born of free will and can be overridden by self-discipline, then a society that deems homosexuality to be offensive could be said to be in a reasonable position to punish it. If it is simply the way people are made then it is unreasonable to punish it for those particular societies.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

If I somehow gave you the impression that I believe AIDS to be a strictly homosexual disease spred only by homosexuals then I will apologize for that although I don't recall being that specific.

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That was indeed the impression you gave. No problem with your clarification though.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Basically the structure of the brain is laid out early in the fetus' development, and the structure differs between males and females. The strongest factor by far in deciding the brain structure is the sex of the fetus, but it looks like there is some sensitivity to maternal hormones, if the levels are altered (ie higher than normal oestrogen for male fetus' and testosterone for female ones) then there is a chance the baby may go on to become gay. How can those hormone levels go askew? No idea I'm afraid..

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I wonder if a woman taking estrogen treatments for whatever reason gets pregnant and THAT cause's the issue, or is it for the most part a natural occurance? It must be natural for gays have been around for eons (Alexander the Great being one); but I do wonder if our constant monkeying around with the female homones for various medical reasons maybe has been a factor at times as well? Interesting stuff....I do know understanding this has made me more aware of gays in society and their rights but I still stand by the fact we have to be very careful to not oppress religious groups in this great rush to political correctness. There is a point where there is room for everyone's opinion, even if it is as seen as "wrong".

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

This isn't the only factor of course, events during childhood and adolescence can also have a strong influence.

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I suspect the die is cast while the child is in the womb. Gays I have met have always known they were "different" and didn't understand why their urges didn't match what society told them, but they knew it was there, even before puberty.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I wonder if a woman taking estrogen treatments for whatever reason gets pregnant and THAT cause's the issue, or is it for the most part a natural occurance? It must be natural for gays have been around for eons (Alexander the Great being one); but I do wonder if our constant monkeying around with the female homones for various medical reasons maybe has been a factor at times as well?

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You could be right, although a woman who produces her own oestrogen should not be getting supplements, only women who don't should be. You could also point the finger at many hormones used in, say, the food industry which are structurally similar to oestrogen although again there isn't a proven link. I was thinking more of unexplained surges in the mother's own oestrogen levels or testosterone levels in the case of lesbians.