Senna...a sportsman ?

As a kid I was a huge Senna fan, but whilst I witnessed some of the dubious actions which have been commented on in this thread I did not understand the rights and wrongs of those actions until I was much older when I discovered the facts behind what I had just see as accidents as a child.

Learning the reasons behind the actions did colour my memories of Senna's career slightly but I still remember him as one of the greatest to sit behind the wheel.

So in answer to the original question. Was he a sportsman - yes. Of the highest order. Was he sporting? - no. He opperated on his own laws and views of right and wrong which I can't agree with.

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Originally Posted by Sonic

So in answer to the original question. Was he a sportsman - yes. Of the highest order. Was he sporting? - no. He opperated on his own laws and views of right and wrong which I can't agree with.

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Very well put, if I may say so.

@jag_warrier, yah I did make reference earlier to tamburello that he was entitled to his opinion.. Opinions are what makes forums 'interesting' when you realise how um, 'diverse' some of them are, but in the big scheme of things.. who reeeeally at the end of the day, gives a toss about what anyone else on a pretty insignificant forum thinks! ;)

Aaaaanyway, back to the MOTORSPORT matter at hand.

If Senna was not deemed to be a sportman then I assume the same can be said for Schumacher, who was found guilty of deliberately taking out Villenueve & was subsequently stripped of all his points for the season. He also had a dubious incident with Hill, & was in the 2000 season widely criticised by his fellow competitiors for his aggressive tactics, then the MC 'stall' quali melarkey. Good sporting conduct?

In the past Alonso has been punished by stewards for unacceptable & dangerous driving. Good sporting conduct?

In 2008 Hamilton was also criticised for his overly aggressive driving style, forcing a few opponants way wide in moves that could be deemed as unsporting. He blatently lied to the race stewards.. good sporting conduct?

They are all sportmen who have at times been unsporting.

It seems that rightly or wrongly most of the world champions of latter years have all shared that same streak, a ruthless need to win & woe betide anyone who gets in their way. Do we casually dust their misdeeds under the rug, well until they're dead at least, then we'll casually forget all the positive stuff, the amazing talent, the respect, uh huh.. the r-e-s-p-e-c-t, they did garner, only to focus on denegrating each of them purely on their indiscretions?

The reason Senna gets a hard time mainly surrounds the events of Suzuka '90, I see the sole reason is because he openly stated he would not yield, no matter what. This seems to be the sole basis for the slating. The fact that the likes of Schumacher, Hamilton or even Prost in '89 have never uttered such simililar/open words could lead to an element of doubt as to whether their actions had been 'intentional' or not.. only they truly know.

You cannot say that Senna is not a sportman, yet, Schumacher for ex. is, simply on the basis that one spoke 'honestly' about his intentions & the other(s) kept quiet.

Unquestionably the Suzuka incident was a sour point in Ayrton's career, but he is not, or rather should not be defined by that. He was a highly successful sportsman, respected by the majority of his peers.. who in the end are the only ones that are in a position to judge.

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Originally Posted by elis

The reason Senna gets a hard time mainly surrounds the events of Suzuka '90, I see the sole reason is because he openly stated he would not yield, no matter what.

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In my case, the reason for my dislike of what happened is the incident that ensued, not the motivation behind it, nor what was said afterwards. Personally, I do not consider any of the incidents involving Michael Schumacher, for example, to have been comparable in terms of their nature. But of course it is right to say that many a top sportsman has at some time or another been unsporting.

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Originally Posted by elis

Unquestionably the Suzuka incident was a sour point in Ayrton's career, but he is not, or rather should not be defined by that. He was a highly successful sportsman, respected by the majority of his peers.. who in the end are the only ones that are in a position to judge.

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Why? We all saw it, and I would think that means we are in quite a good position to make our own assessments on what happened.

Would you give a politician the benefit of the doubt on the same basis — namely that their peers are the only ones able to judge the rights and wrongs of what they do?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Personally, I do not consider any of the incidents involving Michael Schumacher, for example, to have been comparable in terms of their nature.

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Really? Would you care to elaborate on that?

I mean, at Suzuka '90, Senna thought he was right... Now, whether he was or he wasn't is a matter of opinion. In my view, the reasonable opinion is that he wasn't. But I could have understood his position at the time. (However, that doesn't mean I would have approved of him intentionally crashing into Prost in that first corner!)

Can you imagine Schumacher thinking he was right at Jerez '97? Or anyone else thinking it was right, for that matter?

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Originally Posted by studiose

Really? Would you care to elaborate on that?

I mean, at Suzuka '90, Senna thought he was right... Now, whether he was or he wasn't is a matter of opinion. In my view, the reasonable opinion is that he wasn't. But I can understand his position at the time.

Can you imagine Schumacher thinking he was right at Jerez '97? Or anyone else, for that matter?

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What I mean, in a nutshell, is that I don't think any other of the notorious incidents were as savage as what Senna did at Suzuka in 1990. Schumacher's collision with Hill was, in my opinion, unsporting, but it was a fairly low-speed chop. Jerez 1997 probably goes further in terms of defying rational explanation, except to say that it was probably born out of desperation at not winning, and the end result was nowhere near as violent as was what happened in 1990.

Ok.

I judge these things mostly on the basis of motivation, I guess. That's why I think Suzuka '90 was far less bad than Jerez '97 (and even Adelaide '94).

Not that any of those were in any way good! :s

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Why? We all saw it, and I would think that means we are in quite a good position to make our own assessments on what happened.

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Heck, there sure are some fine toothed nit pickers around these boards ;) Sure we all saw it & can offer up personal opinions, not saying otherwise, my comment was more in relation to his peers, who imo are perhaps in a better position to perhaps truly understand or even relate to the situation first hand, given they & not us 'fans' are the ones behind the wheel making choices that sometimes come to fruitian & sometimes do not. Senna was an intense driver who on ocassion made poor choices, I think pretty much every drivers would relate to being in that situation at one point or other, but just wouldn't/didn't flat out admit to the judgement call so publicy... & hence still be paying for it some 19 years later at the keyboards of armchair critics.

Unsporting behaviour is just that, unsporting, no matter who the driver, if the thought is there & the action carried through, it is unsporting. imo.

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Originally Posted by elis

Heck, there sure are some fine toothed nit pickers around these boards ;) Sure we all saw it & can offer up personal opinions, not saying otherwise, my comment was more in relation to his peers, who imo are perhaps in a better position to perhaps truly understand or even relate to the situation first hand, given they & not us 'fans' are the ones behind the wheel making choices that sometimes come to fruitian & sometimes do not. Senna was an intense driver who on ocassion made poor choices, I think pretty much most drivers would relate to being in that situation at one point or other.. but just didn't flat out admit to the judgement call so publicy... & hence still be paying for it some 19 years later at the keyboards of armchair critics.

Unsporting behaviour is just that, unsporting, no matter who the driver, if the thought is there & the action carried through, it is unsporting. imo.

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Maybe what I'm getting at here is the fact that none of his peers indulged in anything quite as blatantly savage (it's the best word I can think of to use) as what Senna did at Suzuka in 1990. Like I said above, I can't think of any other incident that stands comparison in those terms, as opposed to the underlying motivation. One could also mention Estoril in 1988, a move on Senna's part that caused some degree of outrage at the time, because it was just not deemed to be 'the done thing'.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Don't talk about "respect" when you are anything but respectful yourself.

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Sadly, you haven't earned any.