It's time to screw Russia over

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19th August 2008, 12:09
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I have the option to leave as well: I'm also a EU citizen , I also have a passport and I also saved some white money for black days. But running away is not my style, I'm "strange "and "ignorant" but not a coward.
Of course I worry about what happens, Russia was never a friendly neighbour but we've learned a bit from history about how to cope with its ambitions in the region. And the best solution is to don't transgrass on its tail if it's not the case, a lesson that Georgia should have known. Just because we have bad memories about russian occupation we try to avoid that this thing will happen again, that's why we joined NATO despite the fact that costs are huge, that's why in our foreign policy we look after the national interest and don't venture in declarations. We have our own problems related to Moldova and the separatist republic of Transnistria. Time and diplomacy will solve them but we'll never be so crazy to launch an attack, not even a verbal one against Russia.
I remember that in my ignorance I pulled the alarm signal when guys like you were happy to salute Kosovo's independence, I warned you about a lot of separatist republics from the ex-soviet space that will arise problems in the future and now you may see the results. And it was for the first time when I agreed with my leaders who took the wise decision to reject recognition.

You see, Romania walked on Russia tail in the past, and they couldn't do nothing about it.

Remember what happened in Prague? When the Russian tanks invaded Tchechoslovakia? When all the Communist countries but one were on the Soviet side?

That one country who was against them was Romania. As an answer they threatened us with military action, and I have it from good sources that there was a little confrontation on our eastern border, and they left as soon as they realized that they had little chance to win it.

Russia never had the military power to threaten the world, not even to threaten Europe. However now they found a new, stronger weapon, energy!

It's up to us all to do what is humanly possible to lessen our dependence on the Russian energy, and than turn our backs on them economically.
They have to understand that the time of the Czars, when they were dreaming of world domination has ended 100 years ago.

We need to show determination.

Why do you think that Sarkozy was the first European leader to criticize them? Because France is not as dependent on Russian energy as the rest of the European countries.
Germany is heavily dependent and it took them more than a week to say something about the matter, no doubt after having Putin's agreement, and this is sad.
19th August 2008, 12:09
ShiftingGears

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Russia will have theirs in a few years too.

And you know this how?
19th August 2008, 12:10
Tomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

As you see there are plenty of motives to help Georgia only to help ourselves by becoming less dependent of the Russian Gas and Oil, still we do nothing.
I call that paralysis!

How wrong, see above about the pipelines that pass through Georgia.
You see this is the nice part of a discussion, it gives you informations that you didn't know. ;)

We have been working for some years already to become independent of russian energy, dont know what others has done.

I knew about the pipeline, but i dont think its enough to largen the conflict, there will be propably some cosmetic meaninless sanctions but thats it.
19th August 2008, 12:12
PolePosition_1

Ok, so clearly everyone feels Russia is in the wrong.

Take into account Russia had peacekeeping troops in this region, withs Georgia's consent. And Georgia decided to try and take this region.

What should Russia have done in everyones eyes?
19th August 2008, 12:21
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Ok, so clearly everyone feels Russia is in the wrong.

Take into account Russia had peacekeeping troops in this region, withs Georgia's consent. And Georgia decided to try and take this region.

What should Russia have done in everyones eyes?

Those regions were not independent region that Georgia decided to take over, those are separatist regions that were not granted independence by anyone but themselves, not even by the Russians.

And there are Georgians living in those regions too, and those were under fire from the Osetian separatists.

So if we decide to put facts on the table than it's fair to put them all, not just those who support a certain POV.

And if Russia was only there for peace keeping in those 2 regions, than why did they feel the urge to go deep into Georgia, attacking and destroying the town of Gori, also attacking Tbilissi. Killing a few journalists and so on?! Do you call that peace keeping?! :rolleyes:
19th August 2008, 12:24
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Ok, so clearly everyone feels Russia is in the wrong.

Take into account Russia had peacekeeping troops in this region, withs Georgia's consent. And Georgia decided to try and take this region.

What should Russia have done in everyones eyes?

Is this the first time you've watched the news since the Berlin wall came down? :confused:
19th August 2008, 12:35
Rudy Tamasz

Nobody is innocent in the conflict. Georgia just repeated a brutal crackdown on a secessionist region that Russia did earlier in Chechnya. Russia repeated the intervention to "save the civilians" that the U.S. previously did in Kosovo. Both sides look ugly. It's just the fact that Georgia's arrogance and aggression will not hurt the world as much as Russia's.
19th August 2008, 12:36
PolePosition_1

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Those regions were not independent region that Georgia decided to take over, those are separatist regions that were not granted independence by anyone but themselves, not even by the Russians.

And there are Georgians living in those regions too, and those were under fire from the Osetian separatists.

So if we decide to put facts on the table than it's fair to put them all, not just those who support a certain POV.

And if Russia was only there for peace keeping in those 2 regions, than why did they feel the urge to go deep into Georgia, attacking and destroying the town of Gori, also attacking Tbilissi. Killing a few journalists and so on?! Do you call that peace keeping?! :rolleyes:

Ioan, I'm not saying Russia is the innocent party here. I'm just saying its not all poor Georgia and the baddie Russia.

They're both guilty parties, all three including the SO troops.

But I'm just looking at the facts, Georgia decided to get involved, this put 70,000 odd Russian civilians at risk, they were hardly going to let this happen without taking any action. And presumably Georgia knew this, therefore provoking the conflict.

Why have Russia gone in so deep? My understand is that they've gone into Georgia to take control of certain strategic towns (such as Tbilissi) to block off any Georgian troops entering SO from the eastern and western side.

That would make sense, but again, I stress, its highly likely they have other motives. But I'm just looking at the facts, and while Russia are not innocent, far from it, Georgia are more to blame than Russia, yet only Russia is getting the bad press.

So while I understand everyone's concerns, I'm just slightly puzzled as to why no one is laying into Georgia? I'm also slightly dismayed, as I am guessing much of this is because of the media coverage, and how unfair and biased the media is and influential on peoples opinions :(
19th August 2008, 12:41
N

I don't see how can the USA say stuff like, Russia is bullying Georgia, yet the USA invaded IRAQ, killed many more people than Russia did in Georgia, screwed up things much more and yet, it's ok for the USA to do what they do, but when someone else does it, it's not ok.

Surely wars aren't a nice thing, but I'm sick of this USA World domination view that everyone must respect, I'm glad that there are still countries in this world who don't have to obey the mighty USA.

and what about the initial attack launch by Georgia which killed people in the villages which were located in the breakaway regions? You could say what kind of a country launches an attack on it's own territory and its own people?

There is a lot more to this, but most people will see this on their news which is at the end controlled by the US propaganda machine, trying to make the Russian's look bad. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they are doing nice things, but I think people need to take a different view to this instead of just being spoon fed by the media.
19th August 2008, 12:56
gadjo_dilo

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

They are flexing their muscles and are expecting to see what we do about it. If we do nothing they'll do it again on a bigger scale. If we do something, like economical measures, they will know that we are not afraid of them..

The aren't expecting anything because they already know nobody would dare to take economical measures against them. They're only showing what we'll get if we don't behave ourselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

I know what happened, and it happened that Osetians were attacking villages where the majority of the inhabitants were Georgians, and did this for quite some time. This was clearly their bid to produce a military confrontation with the Georgian Militia, and it ultimately happened, and than all of a sudden the Russians were ready to jump in, what a coincidence! ;) ..

Well, with some different "belligerent forces" the script was similar in former Yugoslavia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

And I condemn any country that get's involved in military actions in another sovereign country without having a UNO decision for it. ..

Really? Don't remember your proposal for economic measures against USA and its allies at Iraq's invasion. :laugh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

That doesn't change the fact that the Russians as a whole don't do anything to change things into better...

You know it takes at least 20 years. :laugh: To pick up the right leader you need a base of selection. Good people aren't interested in politics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

You see this is exactly why I left the country 8 years ago and I do not intend to go back....

Nobody leaves a country because his fellow men drink too much. Be honest and say that you left for money. That's why everybody leaves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

I appreciate art a lot, however I do not confound the art of a few individuals with the general lack of culture of the rest of a nation.....

...but the authors are also the expression of a certain spirituality. Even the characters of a literary work are inspired by the contemporary people. And russian characters are really memorable

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

The difference, in this case, is in the percentage of drunkards reported to the whole population.

Sometimes british football teams have to face teams from Bucharest and their fans acompany them. I must confess I've never seen a larger crowd of drunk people at early hours.

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