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Originally Posted by indycool
Wasn't that the idea of the REAL Race of Champions? Not the excuse IROC became. I say put Kinser or whoever up against Travis Pastrana, he'll drive/ride anything on wheels and has beaten some of the worlds best. There's a guy who deserves an Indy rookie test.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
That's why I have a different kind of respect for guys like Robby Gordon and John Andretti and Tony Stewart, who have won races in different types of cars on different kinds of tracks.
we talking about challenging here.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
A kid in grade 4 can be competitive with a chess grand master if they are playing tic tac toe.
What we want here is an environment that challenges and ENABLES you to show a skill difference. If we race on 2 mph electric scooters then I can be completive with Michael Schumacher. The fact is that the top level of baseball is FAR more challenging then little league baseball.
Now I suppose we could water and grease down the baseball diamond field so much that neither really good players, or really bad players to get any traction when they run. The end result of that really crappie baseball diamond is you’ll find little difference between the AAA players and the top national league.
Want to compare the top golfers in the top ranks as compared to the junior leagues?
It was IRL’s Buddy rice that tried a stint last year in A1AGP, and was sent packing. Yet Neel Jani from champ car got a pole, and won his race. ( I think he's gone on to win two races now).
Sure, I have no problem with that. If we’re talking about very high performance cranes that takes years to learn, and you have BMW, Ferrari, Mercedes Benz, Honda, Toyota etc all building incredibly high performance cranes, then sure I have no problem with this.Quote:
If "difficulty" was such a factor, one might consider a crane operator hoisting a 30-ton girder to the 37th floor of a new skyscraper being built and swinging it into place "on the money."
On the other hand if an old guy of 50 years old can operate that crane as good as a 25 year old, then you have an environment in which high levels of skills to not really make a difference between the people..do they? Do you see anyone who is 50 years old and can drive in F1? Do you see any 40 year olds in F1? (you do in NASCAR).
You think you will see a 75 year old man start to beat tiger woods at golf? I suspect you can easily be 60 years old and drive a crane well. You can’t in F1.
It is the combination of high skills and the hand eye coordination that garners the public viewing respect of the sport. This is why you don’t see crane operators getting 45 million a year.
It is the combination of the challenge plus the difficulty that is the issue here, not that it’s just difficult.
The critical concept here is not so much that it’s difficult, as is compared to an environment that allows people with better talent to make a real difference.
That is the critical issue. The most super gifted person with the greatest hand eye coordination can pretty well learned to drive an F1 car, or play golf extremely well.
So, that F1 driver might not do much better then blow joe running that crane. However, put them BOTH in a F1 car, and you instantly see the difference. Even if both people never been in a F1 car, the person with a superior skills is gonna beat the pants off of the other guy.
Champ car was FULL of amazing talent in the last few years. Neel Jani stint in A1GP proved that. Sebastian’s spectacular run in his FIRST race in F1 proved that. The fact of the matter is that we have a significant number of drivers that had driven in F1, and they were most certainly willing to by their time in champ car. Doornbos was a great example and raced in F1 Even Justin Wilson had a stint in F1. Will Power is another driver that I have little doubt could do well in F1.
With a good team and good car, any these drivers would do well in the IRL in short time. The question is can you say the reverse?
I would be willing to bet money that my brother who done driving instruction on the track is likely better then Milkia. Do you really think Milka could drive in F1? Does that mean my brother should be driving in the IRL? (he did get 4.0 for car Control at Bondarent racing, and Tony Stewart had a 4.1).
So, the issue is not because the racing is different, the issue here is how challenging, and HOW MUCH does the racing reward those with superior skills.
Driving a very slow electric scooter that you often see retired people driving in the mall is not going to really run much faster if you drive that same scooter with Michael Schumacher. And, you can be 60 and drive that schooter well.
At the end of the day this is all about at what level of talent and what kind of challenge it takes to be competitive in the particular sport you’re talking about.
The way I see it champ car was a considerable step above that challenge and talent level required to be competitive in the IRL.
I am absolutely 100% convinced that Katherine Legge can run circles around Dankia. However look at how difficult of a time that Katherine had in champ car.
Last year the CCWS had a number of drivers with F1 experience ( part of this was due to the fact that F1 changed their testing rules, and red bull had a lot of drivers sitting around, so some of them were paid to go over to champ car for the year).
Fact is that IRL cars have less power, too much downfornce, and are simply less challenging to drive. The issue is how much of a difference is there between the best and the worst, and does the environment show that difference? Want to compare top golfers to the worst ones? There is a HUGE difference.
Now, the REASON this issue is being brought up, is without that high level of challenge, then the people in that venue will NOT deserve the respect of their peers and fans alike.
We respect the drivers in F1 because they are considered to be the best of the best, and I guarantee virtually any of them could move into any other racing venue with 4 wheels and learn to be competitive in a relatively short time. I simply can’t say the reverse is true for the IRL.
I also think that Graham Rahal has that special talent. I can only hope that the IRL changes their direction a bit, and moves towards making the cars more of a challenge. Without that additional challenge and difficulty, drivers like this will not continue to grow.
You can’t turn someone into a Olympic skier by having them go down a bunny hill all day. You must create an environment in which these people are challenged, and pushed to their limits. Without that special challenge, you don’t create the greats, and it really just that simple.
Now, don't get me wrong, the IRL is very challening, and has it place in the ladder of motor sports, the question is do we want the bar higher then it is now?
Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com
It's a long explanation, Albert, to saying that, IYO, F1 drivers are better than everyone else in every other form of motorsports. Indeed, many around the world think that way for various reasons, not to mention the marketing of the series is better than the world has ever seen.
They are driving distinctive cars on road courses. That means to me that they are the best at driving those distinctive cars on road courses. The so-called "ladder series" everywhere else in the world are formula cars leading hopefully to F1.
Not so in the U.S. No other country has 800-plus short tracks running stock cars, midgets, sprints, supermods, etc., with many drivers seeking the idea of reaching Indy or NASCAR, two entirely different forms of racing.
That's why I say the skills are different and the guy in the stands at Eldora watching Steve Kinser or Sammy Swindell broadslide a half-mile track at an average of over 100 miles an hour in an Outlaw sprinter probably would think Rubens Barrichello was a 7-11 cashier if asked.
It is the same old argument that's gone on for decades. Those with a road racing preference believe their preference to be better than everyone else's.
If Formula One was so popular in the U.S., why didn't it draw half the crowds of the Indianapolis 500 or Brickyard 400?
Albert, the DP01 has more downforce in RC trim than the Dallara, of course I could go on, but start with that 1.
rh
It was very popular in the 70's and 80's when they ran at Long Beach and Watkins Glen. The crowds were HUGE. Running races on both the east coast and west coast was ideal back then. Most of the races could be seen on terrestrial TV at a decent hour. Now we are stuck with reality series in prime time and F1 relegated to the wee hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
The slide started in 1981 when they gave Las Vegas a go versus Watkins Glen which impacted Long Beach. Chris Pook pulled the F1 plug on LBGP 3 years late. F1 tried Dallas, Detroit, and Pheonix and after the dismal support in 1989 left the USA for almost ten years. The Mexico race faired just as bad. Interesting how IndyCar/CART capitalized on F1's demise over the same time period.
Couple this with the direction Bernie took F1 worldwide, making the cost to host a race so expensive for the promoters that many fans couldn't afford the tickets. Even corporate giveaways in 1989 Pheonix didn't help.
Hard to compare with Brickyard ot Indy. Not apples to apples. When it looked like USGP was on the rebound we get the tire fiasco. Stick a fork in it Bernie. Its done here. Unless its back to two affordable races. Long Beach and Miami but that will never happen in my lifetime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pits4me
F1 in those days was a much different and much better product than what we have today.
F1 in those days had Americans competing and winning. Gurney, Hill, Revson, and Andretti all helped spark interest in F1. As CART rose to prominence who was in F1? Cheever? It's no surprise that CART had so much appeal. Andretti, Mears, Sullivan, Unser, Johncock, Donohue, Rutherford.... so many Americans to cheer for!
Especially when Emmo and Nigell came over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Oh my, where should I start???
1. A series that is shown in primetime practically every week versus one that you have to get up at 7 AM on the East coast or 4 AM on the west coast to see live or stay up until 2:30 AM on the east coast.
2. A series that is promoted in heavy rotation versus one that has 1/100th of the advertising. Actually on second thought more like 1/1000th.
3. Ticket prices.
4. Accessibility. You stand more chance of getting a ride on the space shuttle than you will ever have of your shadow gracing the paddock of an F1 track on race day.
5. The xenophobic attitude of sports fans in the USA. (A fact I am very sad to have to discuss.)
Is that enough of a start?
Gary