Independence

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19th February 2008, 18:12
anthonyvop

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Are you serious?
Oh wait, I think you must be American, so better not even start a debate on this.

So you have finally realized I am right!
Now your life will be much more fulfilling!
19th February 2008, 21:17
Rollo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

If enough French people move into southern England should they be able to declare independence? It's very far-fetched, I know, but is it impossible? I think national boundaries should be very hard to change otherwise, particularly in a place like Europe, you'd have the potential for chaos.

Not only is it possible but with the long viewpoint of history it's accepted FACT. Who would you like to start with?

Saxons, Danes? How about when a fellow by the name of Billy set sail with his army of nine thousand Normans, after one of the most confusing roll-calls ever taken and after taking someone's eye out declared himself king? English history is replete with invasion after invasion. As of now there's a Scottish Queen, a Scottish Prime Minister and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer in charge of England.

How about in the country you live? Sufficient number of English people just turned up and settled there and as far as I'm aware, the Australian flag still has a Union Flag in the canton and HM Lizzie is on the back of coins.

Maybe a history lesson is in order. You may like to check out the League of Prizren which was formed in 1878 or 1879? I can't remember.
At any rate, Kosovo was roughly 75% Albanian in origin and about 25% Slavic by the time of the Baltic Wars of 1912 anyway; certainly the Kingdom of Serbia took the place by force, so it could very easily be argued that the formation of the modern republic is just a return to the proper owners anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

you'd have the potential for chaos.

1914-1918, 1939-1945 mean anything to you?
19th February 2008, 22:32
jso1985

I believe any region of the world should be allowed to seek independece through a referendum, in the end why force people to be part of a country they don't want to?

But on this specific case, I don't think it's the right thing for Kosovo, having quite a lot Albanians doesn't seem like a good reason enough, they had autonomy before right? I think in those cases autonomous regions should work
20th February 2008, 00:09
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

Maybe a history lesson is in order. You may like to check out the League of Prizren which was formed in 1878 or 1879? I can't remember.
At any rate, Kosovo was roughly 75% Albanian in origin and about 25% Slavic by the time of the Baltic Wars of 1912 anyway; certainly the Kingdom of Serbia took the place by force, so it could very easily be argued that the formation of the modern republic is just a return to the proper owners anyway.

Let's take the history lesson further and see how many Albanians were living in Kosovo around before 1878?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

1914-1918, 1939-1945 mean anything to you?

Chaos that we don't want to see repeated, that's why everyone should stick th the UN laws that managed to keep us out of trouble for over 60 years, instead of getting euphoric about a bunch of ex-terrorists proclaiming the independence of a region.
20th February 2008, 01:06
Rollo

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Let's take the history lesson further and see how many Albanians were living in Kosovo around before 1878?

Ok. Let's apply it to your country then. If your flag is correct and you do come from Romania, then your country can't have existed for any more than a couple of months at best, longer than Kosovo did. Romania was created under the same set of circumstances at the Congress of Berlin in June of 1878, which also created Serbia and Montenegro on July 13 of that year.
How many Romanians were there before 1878? None. They were all citizens of the Ottoman Empire.

I refer you to the famous Pot vs Kettle racial discrimination case.
20th February 2008, 07:32
gadjo_dilo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

Ok. Let's apply it to your country then. If your flag is correct and you do come from Romania, then your country can't have existed for any more than a couple of months at best, longer than Kosovo did. Romania was created under the same set of circumstances at the Congress of Berlin in June of 1878, which also created Serbia and Montenegro on July 13 of that year.
How many Romanians were there before 1878? None. They were all citizens of the Ottoman Empire.

Excuse my curiosity but are you related to a guy called Mihail ROLLER?
Anyway thank you, Rollo. I was sad this morning and this post was a real laugh. After all Ioan wasn't so wrong the other day. Before he'll send you to the corner ( and this time you deserve this place) I tell you that you studied romanian history from a wrong book. :laugh:
Just for fun check if it was published in Budapest. :laugh: :laugh:

BTW, you told us what romanians "were", now just enlighten us telling what was Romania. And for God's sake don't miss Transylvania. It was, it is and it will ALWAYS be romanian land.

And again for fun I wish that your post is read by a guy from Tibet or by a kurd. :laugh:
20th February 2008, 07:51
Rudy Tamasz

From the standpoint of international law you can argue either way for or agaist the right of peoples to self-determination, because the law and its interpretations are very confusing. After WWII the right to self-determination tended to be applied exclusively to colonial peoples. There were exceptions like Bangladesh and Eritrea, though. In any case, Kosovo is another precedent in favor of a broader interpretation.

In terms of realpolitik I find Kosovo independence very dangerous, though. I think everybody is equally guilty of the mess that happened in former Yugoslavia but only Serbs were made to pay for that. Kosovo is allowed to secede from Serbia, but Serbs are not allowed to secede from Bosnia and Croatia. At the same time Serbia is by far the most belligerent nation in the Balkans and further humiliation of Serbs is the shortest way to future unrest. Unless Serbia is generously compensated Europe is in for another big unrest.
20th February 2008, 08:20
gadjo_dilo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

Maybe a history lesson is in order. You may like to check out the League of Prizren which was formed in 1878 or 1879? I can't remember.
At any rate, Kosovo was roughly 75% Albanian in origin and about 25% Slavic by the time of the Baltic Wars of 1912 anyway; certainly the Kingdom of Serbia took the place by force, so it could very easily be argued that the formation of the modern republic is just a return to the proper owners anyway.

I raise my hands up and admit that if there ever were Baltic Wars in 1912 I missed that lesson ( disliked the modern and contemporary history lessons ).
And can't see any relation between Kosovo and Baltic Sea.
I suppose you're talking about Balkanic Wars which is another fish dish.
According to the serbian represantative in our parliament serbs were in majority even before 2nd WW when Mussolini determined serbs to leave and find refuge in Serbia. Then after the war Tito gave a decree that interdicted them to get back and albanians became the majority. Don't know if it's true cos he could be biased. But it's not fair to take things out of context and say in the year X there were...
For ex.: in Bulgaria there is an area we use to call Cadrilater. Before the balcanic wars no romanian lived there. Then after balcanic wars Romania won it and colonized it. In 1940 Bulgaria won it back and all romanians were sent back in 48 hours. It's more than fair for a romanian to say that this land is bulgarian even if in the year 1940 we were probably the majority.
20th February 2008, 08:27
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

Ok. Let's apply it to your country then. If your flag is correct and you do come from Romania, then your country can't have existed for any more than a couple of months at best, longer than Kosovo did. Romania was created under the same set of circumstances at the Congress of Berlin in June of 1878, which also created Serbia and Montenegro on July 13 of that year.
How many Romanians were there before 1878? None. They were all citizens of the Ottoman Empire.

:rotflmao:
We got to the point where an Englishman believes he knows better Romanian history than a Romanian.
You seem to only know about facts from 1878 up to now. Well, I have some new for you, the world existed before 1878 too.
I'll even go as far as telling you that we, Romanians, existed hundreds of years before the Ottoman Empire was created!
As for the first time when Romania was created as independent state that united all 3 provinces that were inhabited by Romanian speaking population I'll refer you to year 1600 and Mihai Viteazul (Michael the Brave).
Here, have good read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_the_Brave

You will notice that he was let down by his so called allies (the same ones that let down Romania in WWII in front of the Russians) who went as far as killing him.

We as a people might have been divided and ruled by different Empires over the history from the 3rd century up to 1918 when we managed to brake free, but we were still talking the same language after more than a thousand years of occupation.

I hope this helped to give you some knowledge of pre 1878 history of Europe!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

I refer you to the famous Pot vs Kettle racial discrimination case.

I don't see the utility of this comment in this discussion.
20th February 2008, 08:41
Mark

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

We as a people might have been divided and ruled by different Empires over the history from the 3rd century up to 1918 when we managed to brake free,

Would you classify 1947-1989 as 'free'?

Quote:

but we were still talking the same language after more than a thousand years of occupation.

It's an evolution of the same language, but I doubt any spoken language today is the same as it was 1000 years ago.

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