Team orders at Ferrari

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Those who are against Schumi should be agreeable that when it is a team the slower driver in front must be a perfect gentleman and allow the quicker driver through.

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I fully agree with this attitude, and the Saint aught to be congratulated for his saintly reasoning, God bless him. Massa should have moved over in a gentlemanly fashion to allow Vettel to pass.

The outcome of the meeting could be that Ferrari is further sanctioned .

But , the result of sanctioning would put the lunacy of these rules to the forefront .
There is a clear understanding that team orders exist .
There is a rule that bans them .

The words that came from Smedley were carefully phrased to omit any actual order , as per the requirement to mask any instruction that might be perceived as such , but due to "the way" it was delivered , it was seen as an order .

Ok , then , let's get on with picking stewards for the upcoming races .
We'll need , now , to include the requirement to be experts in linguistics , so that none of those guys intimates something illegal was going on by sliding that inflection around , willy-nilly .
And , let's not forget that a lot of those guys don't have english as a first language , so we'll need someone fluent with all the grid talkers .


The rule banning team orders is an insult to our collective intelligence .

We know they exist .
The FIA knows they exist .
The teams know they exist .

It is currently down to "the way" the order is given .

Smedley and Massa , in the end , may turn out to be heroes , as it may be that this situation is what is needed to bring the issue to the table at the WMSC hearing , to finally end this mess .
The best result from an inquiry would be to have the ban on team orders lifted , and return the pride to the dutiful number two .


Many laud Gilles as one of the best that the sport has ever seen , and never have I ever seen him slagged for being a number two .
Many , in fact , believe that it was Pironi's pass , when he was expected to play that role that triggered Gilles's death , distracted by the betrayal of his friend and team-mate .

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Originally Posted by henners88

Call me old fashioned but I like to see racing. Not every tussle ontrack results in one driver forcing the other either into a wall or onto the grass at high speed and Mclaren showed in Turkey that teammates can battle without unnecessary blocking. There have been instances in races where Button has been faster than Hamilton and vice versa and I am yet to see calls for one to let the other through. I could understand it if a teammate felt obliged to let the other through in the closing stages of the championship where he has no chance of staying in contention, but to see these kind of tactics at the half way stage is disappointing IMO.

The only contradiction here my friend is from your own post. First you say the idea of team orders is ridiculous, and then you say they were concerned there would be a collision between the two? So what was the outcome of this concern, suggesting to Felipe that Fernando was quicker, nudge, nudge, wink, wink?? They were found provisionally guilty of using team orders and fined $100,000. The hearing next month will decide if further action is needed. Whatever the outcome it will surely be interesting reading on here thats for sure. If the decision is overturned (doubtful) there will be gloating and the confidence in the FIA will be restored from certain fans, and if the points are docked there will be calls that its a conspiracy and the world is against Ferrari. Lets wait and see and in the mean time, I think I'll agree to disagree on this one. ;)

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I think we all like racing - but the current drivers at Ferrari and Red Bull are not Jenson and Lewis and they do not have the very positive influence of someone like Martin Whitmarsh.

Definitely, anyone knowing Jense's attitude in racing realizes that while he is an aggressive driver he always considers the car first and THINKS. There were examples last season that resulted in criticism - misguided.

Someone like Jense is a positive influence on Hamilton who is much less experenced and takes more risks.

In the case of Ferrari and Red Bull I think team orders are essential because at least one driver in the team has shown an inability to respect his teammate.

And even at Mclaren if you recall after I think Turkey [?] when Lewis and Jense passed each other - it was a VERY new experience for Lewis. He is still getting used to the idea that his teammate is not someone that will not be totally fair and clean.

I predict that Jense and Lewis will have positive longer term influences on each other compared to the others and that they will become as potent a team as Lauda and Prost at Mclaren.

Whitmarsh has chosen extremely well. They are both capable of supporting each other to second world titles.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

The outcome of the meeting could be that Ferrari is further sanctioned .

But , the result of sanctioning would put the lunacy of these rules to the forefront .
There is a clear understanding that team orders exist .
There is a rule that bans them .

The words that came from Smedley were carefully phrased to omit any actual order , as per the requirement to mask any instruction that might be perceived as such , but due to "the way" it was delivered , it was seen as an order .

Ok , then , let's get on with picking stewards for the upcoming races .
We'll need , now , to include the requirement to be experts in linguistics , so that none of those guys intimates something illegal was going on by sliding that inflection around , willy-nilly .
And , let's not forget that a lot of those guys don't have english as a first language , so we'll need someone fluent with all the grid talkers .


The rule banning team orders is an insult to our collective intelligence .

We know they exist .
The FIA knows they exist .
The teams know they exist .

It is currently down to "the way" the order is given .

Smedley and Massa , in the end , may turn out to be heroes , as it may be that this situation is what is needed to bring the issue to the table at the WMSC hearing , to finally end this mess .
The best result from an inquiry would be to have the ban on team orders lifted , and return the pride to the dutiful number two .


Many laud Gilles as one of the best that the sport has ever seen , and never have I ever seen him slagged for being a number two .
Many , in fact , believe that it was Pironi's pass , when he was expected to play that role that triggered Gilles's death , distracted by the betrayal of his friend and team-mate .

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To blame Pironi for Gilles death is totally to misuderstand the situation and ridiculous. The problem is that Gilles was killed and it was so soon afterwards for the issue to be cleared.

The issue at Hockenheim is over and anything affecting that result is likely to start the FOTA vs FIA war all over again. Nobody wants that and Bernie as well as Todt will not permit it. It is not worth it and Ferrari were the only ones affected.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I fully agree with this attitude, and the Saint aught to be congratulated for his saintly reasoning, God bless him. Massa should have moved over in a gentlemanly fashion to allow Vettel to pass.

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... and add to that the fact the Schumacher was completely in the right to push Rubens to the concrete wall and you have the two faces of the argument, both stated by the same forum member! :laugh:

Oh yeah, and Heikki should have moved to avoid Webber running into the back of him also. The nerve of some drivers trying to make a pass easy!

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Originally Posted by airshifter

... and add to that the fact the Schumacher was completely in the right to push Rubens to the concrete wall and you have the two faces of the argument, both stated by the same forum member! :laugh:

Oh yeah, and Heikki should have moved to avoid Webber running into the back of him also. The nerve of some drivers trying to make a pass easy!

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Schumi did not push Rubens to the concrete wall - he defended his position and moved away when Rubens did not back-off.

Rubens then lunged at Schumi who had to move as well - no crying from Schumi - but then Rubens is no Schumacher.

He is an excellent number TWO driver at BEST. Even at Brawn did he finish the championship in second place? No. He was beaten by Vettel.

It was Kovaleinen's moving around that confused Webber and triggered the accident. Kovaleinen is not a consistent driver. He does not hold his line well and it was this weakness commented on by Jenson Button in 2009 that led the Brit to say if Kovaleinen disciplined himself he could actually win races.

Its too late now because Kovaleinen had chances with top teams. If Lotus even gets a podium in the next FIVE years it is going to be amazing.

There really is no point for new teams to enter the sport because they are going to have to get used to being the teams that make up the numbers for YEARS to come.

Just look at Force India - it required a direct partnership with Mclaren for them to achive a podium. That is now gone and together with losing key personnel their prospects for 2011 are not great at all.

Whatever is left of Sutil's reputation - he is rather erratic - will further be tarnished in 2011 along Force India's.

But whichever way, they will survive and even Chandok may yet get that opportunity because Bernie wants an Indian team and an Indian driver to race in the first Indian Grand Prix.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

... and add to that the fact the Schumacher was completely in the right to push Rubens to the concrete wall and you have the two faces of the argument, both stated by the same forum member! :laugh:

Oh yeah, and Heikki should have moved to avoid Webber running into the back of him also. The nerve of some drivers trying to make a pass easy!

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Well, that's one of the benefits of being canonised by the Vatican.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Schumi did not push Rubens to the concrete wall - he defended his position and moved away when Rubens did not back-off.

Rubens then lunged at Schumi who had to move as well - no crying from Schumi - but then Rubens is no Schumacher.

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Oh yea! I almost forgot - they also are priviledged to re-write history. ;)

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Originally Posted by henners88

Red Bull and Mclaren are just more exciting to watch from now on because they are fighting each other from within and are not playing support roles. :)

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That is extraordinarily speculative and also not to the point. How many times has Fred been right behind Massa this season running 1, 2? The reality is Massa has been behind Fred in most races.
Just for the sake of argument let’s say this trend continues. Let us also assume that FM is still driving his fastest, and on the off chance Ferrari are still in the fight for the titles. What would be so unexciting about Alonso and Massa both putting a beat-down on the runners that they are (as a team trying to overtake)? The likelihood of Ferrari racing excitement suffering because one pilot has a distinct advantage (regardless of how he got it) is absurd.

Plus it will be interesting to see how hard the RB's and McL's fight each other in the races going forward
A very silly, biased and senseless point born out of tabloid frenzy only meant to insight "The Contras", also known as "The Anglo Mafia"!
From this point forward all team strategy will add an extra later of interest to the championship! :s ailor:

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'm sure both Mclaren drivers learn alot from each other. I'm pretty sure Jenson is studying Lewis to find out why he is faster, and how Lewis has adapted his driving style over the past two season's to eradicate the myth that he is too hard on his tyres etc. Likewise Lewis is probably finding positives in Jenson's approach. I don't think Turkey was the first time Lewis experienced a teammate who was not totally clean and fair unless we all have very short memories. Lewis had none other than Fernando Alonso as his teammate in his debut season, and one striking incident which comes to mind is Spa 2007 when Alonso pushed him wide just after La Source. Canada of that year also saw a first corner duel between teammates which could have ended in tears.

Anyway, Ferrari IMO have chosen one driver to contest for this years championship and that happens to be their $68m investment. I do agree with one of your points St.D and that is the carefull management at Mclaren is not something Ferrari could adopt and something they have never mastered. They are a one car team in terms of fighting for the WDC, and I am not criticizing that method, its their choice. Red Bull and Mclaren are just more exciting to watch from now on because they are fighting each other from within and are not playing support roles. :)

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Button is giving Hamilton a good run for his money :laugh: . What team orders do you need at McLaren when one driver is consistently slower than the other? And the Red Bull internal fight is quite clean and fair with all the "save fuel" BS and the wing story... and the sudden lack of pace of Webber in Hungary... Don't you find it interesting how all of a sudden Webber is HALF A SECOND slower than his team mate?