Team orders at Ferrari

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

There is nothing wrong with this.

If you or I were to disobey an order from the boss, we should expect to be no longer employed.

Of course, there are times when to disobey is the correct thing to do, even if employment termination is the result. That is a matter for the conscience.

But Mr Barrichello did not disobey, he chose to keep his job, so his conscience cannot have been too troubled by the order.

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Well, at least you have accepted that team orders were employed now.

I have a question for you Mr B. Why did Ferrari make it so obvious in your opinion that Rubens was to move over? Lets leave the inflammatory bits out about better liars etc and look at the mess they dropped themselves in.

As a Ferrari fan, didn't you cringe? We all accept (I hope) that team orders play some part in the sport to a greater or lesser degree. Some teams will have a blatant #1 and #2 driver, some will try to favour a driver and some will let their drivers duke it out as long as they don't take each other off. But, I believe they all use team orders to some degree. Do you concur?

Personally, I think Ferrari scored a bit of an own goal. The team tried to get Alonso in the lead before this and Rob may have been a bit peeved at having to "order" his driver out of the way. Perhaps he was making a point to the team but didn't realise it would have such implications?

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Please read more carefully.

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I did; and you were objecting that it was acceptable that McLaren were better liars. Correct??

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Originally Posted by skc

Well, at least you have accepted that team orders were employed now.

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I have never said they were not in Austria. You must have misunderstood.

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Originally Posted by skc

I have a question for you Mr B. Why did Ferrari make it so obvious in your opinion that Rubens was to move over?

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Why shouldn't they? It was not illegal, so nothing to hide.

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Originally Posted by skc

As a Ferrari fan, didn't you cringe?

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No, as I have been watching and understanding Formula One long enough to know that team-orders were part of racing.

The aim of Ferrari, as I expect with every team, is to win championships as effieciently as possible.

That is what they were doing in Austria, so no reason to cringe.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I did; and you were objecting that it was acceptable that McLaren were better liars. Correct??

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No. It was not my assertion that Mclaren were better liars. That was the assertion of Mr Henners88.

I was objecting that, in his opinion, being a better liar was more acceptable.

I find that attitude very strange. Certainly, it is not something to be pleased about.

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Originally Posted by skc

But, I believe they all use team orders to some degree. Do you concur?

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No, as an order is an instruction. It has to be proven that a driver was given an order.

Until then, with definitive proof that an order was given, then a team cannot be said to have given an order.

Nowhere at Hockenheim did you hear a direct instruction given. Ergo, no team order.

A driver can understand that the team is more important than the individual without being ordered that it is so.

An expectation by the team of a certain attitude and a certain behaviour is not the same as an instruction to do something.

It is important to remember this as a legal argument, as it will be decided, like most things in Formula One, by lawyers and not by self-appointed fans spokesmen such as Mr Henners88.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

No, as an order is an instruction. It has to be proven that a driver was given an order.

Until then, with definitive proof that an order was given, then a team cannot be said to have given an order.

Nowhere at Hockenheim did you hear a direct instruction given. Ergo, no team order.

A driver can understand that the team is more important than the individual without being ordered that it is so.

An expectation by the team of a certain attitude and a certain behaviour is not the same as an instruction to do something.

It is important to remember this as a legal argument, as it will be decided, like most things in Formula One, by lawyers and not by self-appointed fans spokesmen such as Mr Henners88.

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You are correct. Nowhere did Ferrari directly order Massa to allow Alonso to pass. We will have to await the WMSC hearing to see whether Ferrari has anything to answer for. However, Massa's chief engineer will be asked to explain why he repeatedly told Massa that Alonso, who was behind him, was faster; and then asking Massa if he understood. His explanation will be most interesting.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

I have never said they were not in Austria. You must have misunderstood.

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I think I must have done. I don't recall you ever mentioning Austria specifically. I was under the assumption we were talking about the current situation.

Oh well, I was hoping we could open the conversation up a little but it seems we are stuck in a hole still.

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Originally Posted by ioan

To Alonso maybe.
Vettel never managed to catch Felipe once they were in direct competition for 2nd place.
But hey, don't let the facts stand in your own reality's way.

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You cover your bases. Who would've known Massa would hold off Vettel? (Perhaps Vettel settled for third or can Vettel overtake when it counts most?)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Load of BS.
The money is paid by FOM in function of the constructors championship standings, most teams only care about the WCC.

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LOL

Most teams care about the WCC because so they can better themselves for WDC.

When you're one of the apex teams, winning races, WDC is the goal.

Were Ferrari happy winning the WCC in 1999 as consolation prize? Not as happy at winning the WDC, that's for damn sure.

The only reason you can say that Ferrari screwed up here is that they did not have complete control over all thier employees .

Alonso was faster at that moment , and in fact , after Felipe had already received two transmissions about his team-mate being faster , Fernando dropped back and took back the gap easily , to demonstrate the fact .

Ferrari have no employees at Red Bull , so , could not have had any way to tell if Vettle was able to make a late race charge .

The fact that his team had to mention three times that his team-mate was faster shows how fragile Felipe is in his position .
It also shows he's loved at Ferrari , but , with this insolence , the love will not last .

Rubens knew he would no longer be employed by the reds if he didn't move over for Mike in Austria .
And , even Mike knew he had been given a gift , as it was his supposedly making a mockery of pushing Rubens up to the top step that garnered his team the penalty in the end , not the order itself .

But , as here , instead of lauding Rubens in the case , as they should Felipe , for being the dutiful number two , as putting him up the step does , the crowd tore into Michael and Ferrari , for being cruel .
Simply , as in Felipe's case here , Ferrari put the eggs in the basket of the one who can win the title .


Ferrari did not give a team order .
They told the driver that he drives for a team .
That is what they told him right after he signed his name on the contract .

Felipe gets lots of instructions from his team , and lots more from his race engineer .
I can't imagine his contract says that he gets to pick and choose which instructions he will follow .

Now , to be fair , Massa did move over .
But , he did it in such a way that cost his team $100,000.00 and the possibility of more sanction in future .


Had Felipe said " Because my team-mate was much faster , and I didn't want to risk either of our cars , I didn't make it too hard for him . The result for the team were most important , and we didn't know how much more that Sebastian had for the end of the race ." , we might have looked at this as a good team effort , and the best he could achieve that day .

That's an honourable way to take the fact that you're slower and turn it into a positive .

If Felipe was faster in that moment , he might have had something to whine about .
But he wasn't , end of story .
He turned into "Felipe-baby" .

It is important to remember that the rules which apply here are those implemented and policed by the FIA. The FIA stated that a breach of Article 39.1, which bans team orders, and 151c, which relates to bringing the sport into disrepute, had been committed and Ferrari were fined $100,000 and referred to the WMSC.

Ferrari are not appealing that outcome.