Hamilton Stripped of Win - Official

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

There HAVE been precedents in the valencia/Ferrari case and each time the penalty was either drive through and or time penalty !!!!!!!!

In Hamilton's case this is the very first time I driver gets punished....and it's the very first time the term "advantage" is used...and like I said before...nowhere (at least I haven't found it or anyone else posted it) in the FIA rulesbook the word "advantage" is not explained on what exactly they mean by it....

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This is why I started the Rules thread.

It is soooo difficult to understand exactly what is happening because the FIA make it purposly covert.

I would suggest that 90%+ of us understood that if you gain an advantage by cutting a corner, then you conceed the place.

We understood that to be the rules and when it happens, the commentators say it.

However, I can't find it written anywhere on the FIA site that this is part of the rules. In fact, i know quite a bit about the rules and regulations and know that it isn't there.

So, we have what the Stewards have claimed. He cut a chicane.

In this, they are 100% right as that is all that is in the rules.

They have ignored the rules that prohibit drivers forcing others off track or that he avoided an accident and just taken one specific incident into account.

If this is the case, it is proof positive that the infractions committed by Ferrari will be ignored as they have been and McLaren will be penalised on technicalities where nobody else is.

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

ok ok correction..THE TEAM ;-) got a penalty..and a penalty is a penalty..where other TEAMS in the past got a drive through and/or time penalty for the same..Ferrari only got a fine..Just like in the past never/ever a team and/or driver was penalised for exactly the same/or even worse action ala Hamilton...Why is that Ioan ? where is the logic ?

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The stewards deemed that Massa didn't get any advantage from that "incident", and rightly so because he slotted in behind Sutil. Also he didn't impede Sutil in any way.

Given that it was the teams responsibility to release the car in a safe manner, they were punished! Is it so complicated?! I think not.

This season it happened another 3 times previously that cars were released alongside a car that was traveling on the pit lane. never was any penalty given to anyone!

When was it that in a similar case a penalty was handed to a driver? Just tell us and the case will be analyzed.

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Originally Posted by ioan with modification by Knockie

The stewards deemed that Lewis didn't get any advantage from that "incident", and rightly so because he slotted in behind Kimi. Also he didn't impede Kimi in any way.

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:laugh:

Couldn't resist

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Originally Posted by cosmicpanda

I did check it out, call me a numpty but I couldn't find anything on the FIA site.

However I did find this on pitpass, which contradicts you:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=35734

"Sure enough, shortly after the end of the race, having viewed video evidence and spoken to the driver and representatives of Ferrari, it was decided that the Brazilian had not gained any advantage from the incident, though he had breached Article 23.1 (i) of the 2008 Formula One Sporting Regulations, consequently he was fined 10,000 euros and officially reprimanded, but kept the win."

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Here, from a somewhat more reliable source (hope you agree):

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Originally Posted by autosport.com

Felipe Massa's Ferrari team have been reprimanded and fined by the European Grand Prix stewards, but the Brazilian driver has kept his victory at Valencia.

Massa's victory was in doubt after the stewards said they would investigate a pitlane incident after the race.

The Brazilian nearly crashed with Force India's Adrian Sutil when joining the pitlane following his pitstop and the stewards deemed his release had been dangerous.

As a result of the incident Ferrari have been reprimanded and Ferrari fined 10,000 Euro for the "unsafe release from pitstop, although no sporting advantage was obtained."

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Link to article: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70038

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

This is why I started the Rules thread.

It is soooo difficult to understand exactly what is happening because the FIA make it purposly covert.

I would suggest that 90%+ of us understood that if you gain an advantage by cutting a corner, then you conceed the place.

We understood that to be the rules and when it happens, the commentators say it.

However, I can't find it written anywhere on the FIA site that this is part of the rules. In fact, i know quite a bit about the rules and regulations and know that it isn't there.

So, we have what the Stewards have claimed. He cut a chicane.

In this, they are 100% right as that is all that is in the rules.

They have ignored the rules that prohibit drivers forcing others off track or that he avoided an accident and just taken one specific incident into account.

If this is the case, it is proof positive that the infractions committed by Ferrari will be ignored as they have been and McLaren will be penalised on technicalities where nobody else is.

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and even if it is in the rulesbook..For all these years it was tolerated --> fight for position..one driver cut the chicane..gives position back..case closed..It happens almost every race weekend and whatever series or championship....never someone whined about the fact this or that driver gained advantage...why now suddenly at Spa stewards look different at things ?

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Lol, no need to be so patronising. The F1 pitlanes are ordered so that its a single file formation out of the pits. By running alongside him its not meant to happen, if he'd taken the single file format he would have gone into the path of Sutil.

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He didn't go into the path of Sutil.
tell us where were you when the other 3 times this happened this season? Don't be shy! Were you calling for the driver's heads? I don't remember seeing you crying out about it! So don't be a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

But to wait for a car to pass, it he would have had to wait, costing him time, therefore by being released he gained a time advantage. The reason why Dnaiel thinks Hamilton should have been penalised. I'm just pointing out Massa gained a time advantage by not waiting for Sutil to pass.

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I'll only point out that Massa quit the pit lane area behind Sutil, so tell us where did he gain a time advantage. Don't duck it, answer this question. How did he gain time advantage if he joined the race track behind Sutil, isn't it what would have happened anyway?!

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Originally Posted by Daniel

For the last time.... NO!

There should be consistency between IDENTICAL offences. Yes. But we're talking different offences here. The offence Lewis commited has everything to do with gaining an unfair advantage over a competitor and Massa's or rather Ferrari's offence has nothing to do with gaining an advantage as such.

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Losing your time talking to a wall, Daniel?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Just found this :
Fernando in Spain to local media says in response to being asked about the incident , "In the end , what they say is always fair , whether you like it of not ."

That's another current driver agreeing that Lewis deserved what he got .

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I bet Kovalainen would say the same thing, if he was allowed too, that is!

But hey, even if 19 drivers out of the 20 would say the same thing, the Lewy fanatics will only believe Lewy and his two fathers! ;)

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

In what way did Hamilton gain an advantage?

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If, after 3 days and 32 pages of discussion you still didn't understand what was explained in 100's of different, by all kind of F1 related or unrelated people, than there is no use for me to say it another supplementary time.
Or to put it clearly, you can't make a wall understand you.

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

There HAVE been precedents in the valencia/Ferrari case and each time the penalty was either drive through and or time penalty !!!!!!!!

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Post those precedents when 2 cars going side by side in the pit lane were given penalties and you'll get many more examples for when 2 cars went side by side on the pit lane and were not punished.

Just saying that there were such cases it won't make it true, give us examples.