Should f1 run coupes?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I think it's extremely poor of them to try and speculate as to why a dead person did or didn't do. We'll never know for certain.

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I'm not saying they had a death wish but some drivers like Senna and Gilles have died because their emotions just managed to get the better of them. The clues are all too obvious.

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Originally Posted by wedge

I'm not saying they had a death wish but some drivers like Senna and Gilles have died because their emotions just managed to get the better of them. The clues are all too obvious.

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Definitely. But this wasn't Dan's accident, it just happened in front of him and it would appear that there was little he could do to avoid it in the circumstances. I'm more than happy to have a discussion about the mechanics of the accident and how differences in the cars could have made for a less severe accident, but when it comes to apportioning blame I must say I'm very uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

When I've had the chance to watch, I've also loved watching IndyCars on ovals purely because of the speed and the fact that they can overtake anywhere.

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See, that's the main problem. Making the cars safer is arguably band aid.

High downforce thoroughbred race cars racing in a pack, its a recipe for disaster. All very well sticking on a canopy and bumpers but you're still very likely to get a multicar pile up and with carbon fibre flying everywhere and perhaps cars still going airborne because of averaging 220mph laps.

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Originally Posted by wedge

See, that's the main problem. Making the cars safer is arguably band aid.

High downforce thoroughbred race cars racing in a pack, its a recipe for disaster. All very well sticking on a canopy and bumpers but you're still very likely to get a multicar pile up and with carbon fibre flying everywhere and perhaps cars still going airborne because of averaging 220mph laps.

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Well I said nothing about a canopy. I think a canopy would have been as useful as a chocolate fireguard against the wall at the angle the impact occured.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Of course there is less chance of this happening in F1. But as we've seen in countless incidents F1 cars will ride over each other.

I'm not saying there is a risk of an F1 car crashing on an oval because that simply doesn't happen, the point is that F1 cars can ride over each other too and once a car gets up in the air there's no telling what will happen.

On street circuits like Valencia or Singapore, with the closing speeds the cars sometimes have, there is a very real chance of one car flying and being chucked into a catch fence, of course on an F1 track that angle is usually going to be a bit more acute (which is safer) than the oblique angle that cars on an oval track tend to hit the catch fence at, but it's still a danger, and one that could be eliminated with very little impact upon the sport.

http://www.ausmotive.com/F1/2010/Eur...r-flips-05.jpg
It doesn't need to be a high speed impact either.
http://answers.bettor.com/images/Art...-jpg-41042.jpg

It seems like it'll take a death in F1 to make people see that this danger is inherent in all forms of open wheel motorsport, not just on ovals.

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Drivers have a choice of a number of other race codes with enclosed cockpits if they want. F1 is F1, not touring cars. Open cockpits remain, thats what helmets are for!!!!!

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Drivers have a choice of a number of other race codes with enclosed cockpits if they want. F1 is F1, not touring cars. Open cockpits remain, thats what helmets are for!!!!!

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Not if they want to race in F1.

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Originally Posted by wedge

I'm not saying they had a death wish but some drivers like Senna and Gilles have died because their emotions just managed to get the better of them. The clues are all too obvious.

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not sure i can agree with that comment re. Senna (i don't know enough about the circumstances of Gilles death), but Senna died as a result of a probable car failure on a corner that was flat out, hardly a product of red mist or pushing too hard. An emotional person yes, who undoubtedly let his emotions cloud his judgement on occasions, but I really don't think its fair to say thats why he dies. It may have made it more likely he was going to have a big one, but that crash can't be down to those reasons IMO

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

True, but Will Power is alive today. He walked away from the incident having also been launched over the rear wheel of another car. His part in the accident did not result in a fatality or serious injury. The difference in the two outcomes was the fence, not being launched into the air.

If you believe that then you misunderstand what I, and others have said in response to your thread. Of course we all want drivers safe and alive. However, it is a fundamental fact that motorsport, at whatever level of activity, can be, and will remain, dangerous whatever steps are taken.

That is not the same as saying that we should simply shrug our shoulders at the loss of a racing driver and carry on as if nothing had happened. No-one is suggesting that, and if you follow Twitter you'll see that Indycar drivers are not doing that either.


Once again no-one is, as you put it, "just accepting that people should die".

I think some of us accept that you cannot entirely eliminate risk, injury or death either in motorsport or life and if you try to do so you remove some elements of what life is about.

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I'm sorry, but there is some extremely poor logic being applied in here.

1. Sure Will Power survived his accident but only because he went into the fence with the underneath of the tub (see videos for proof), I never said that everyone who was going to get launched was going to get killed. It's a testament to the safety of the cars that only one person died and no one else appears to have any permanent injuries. Such is the random nature of these sorts of accidents. We've seen some accidents which seem apocalyptically bad at the time like Kubica in Canada or Kenny Brack's impact with a catch fence and the driver is just fine and then some accidents which appear fairly minor in comparison and the driver dies.

2. Again you seem to not get the fact that I'm not saying we're ever going to make motorsport 100% safe, who decided that this point we've reached now is precisely as safe as we need to be? :confused:

3. I never said that IndyCar is doing nothing, in fact rather the opposite. Dan was testing the car which had multiple improvements including enclosed rear wheels which should lessen the chances of the car behind flying. With some of the near misses that we've had in recent years I would have thought it was quite obvious that stopping cars from flying or riding up on other cars would be a good thing.

4. I don't get how you can say that no one is "just accepting that people should die". People are saying stuff like that fatalities will always occur. Are we really so ghoulish that if we went 20 years in motorsport as a whole without a fatality that we would see fit to lower standards so that one was more likely? I think F1 has warped people's perceptions of what motorsport should be. Before tyre rules, KERS and DRS came along we had what was a fairly processional series with very little racing. I'll confess to not having an encyclopaedic knowledge of the BTCC, but to my knowledge there hasn't been a death in the BTCC for quite a long time and yet the BTCC managed to be a really spectacular series with great racing. No carbon fibre monocoques, drivers still sitting on one side of the car rather than in the middle. of course there is always the possibility that there will be a fatality, but it need not be a certainty for people to find the racing exciting.

5. Of course you can't remove risk. But if you add bumpers to an open wheel racing car I don't quite see how you're removing some part of what your life is about. I think such pseudo-emotional language is a very poor excuse for someone needing to die.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Did I tell you to, or suggest it might be a good idea? :admiral:

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That you aren't banned is a miracle, that is all.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Not if they want to race in F1.

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If they want to race in F1, they race with an open cockpit. If they want a pay cut and a roof over their heads to make them feel secure, they can join NASCAR, Touring Cars, WRC....