Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
How do you guys know these numbers, and where are the numbers?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
How do you guys know these numbers, and where are the numbers?
Who knows if the series operates in the black or red. Most of the guys don't care what series they are racing just so long as they are racing. For example, Bobby D's chief engineer (as well as several members from various CC and Atlantic teams) are running PJ Chesson's efforts in Chicago today. Steve Horne is in Chicago today as well (let the rumors start flying). These guys just want to race.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
You've been discredited several times before. Your stories only serve as a great disservice to the series you love. Stop already.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Link!Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
C'mon heelntoe, lets see your CC financials. A real link with real numbers. not some made up stuff either. Let's see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
One other thing, don't come here with old CART financials from 4 years ago, as you IRL fans like to do, and try to say they are the same for CC.
CCWS has nothing to do with the way CART operated financially, nothing.
I have been reading this thread and have enjoyed it because it pretty much sums up the sorry state of things on both sides along with how most fans I speak to feel. I decided to post something becuase I have insight into the the financials of both series and believe that neither comes close to breaking even. Since the subject of this tread is what happens next, I ask everyone here to consider the likely reality of the Champ Car and IRL financials.
Sanguin claims that Champ Car is in the black so from I have read of his posts, I can only assume he works for the owners of OWRS or he wouldn't make a satment like that. Right Mr. Sanguin?
If this is true, where then does the money come from to create this profit?
Sponsorship? TV income? Sanction fees such as Denver, Zuhai and Phoenix?
Or perhaps the promoters in the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz and Europe paying a premium for a series with questionable marque value, few stars and little portable commercial support.
Please Mr. Sanquin explain it to all of the foolish doubters.
Maybe the OWRS owners are simply reducing costs to the bare minimum and playing a shell game with promoters on these fees to make things look better to a potential buyer.
How much are the owners paying out of their own pockets to run mostly unsponsored cars, including K. Legge?
How much are they paying P. Stoddart for the F1 two seaters?
Where all this Champ Car income really coming from? Mazda? Bridgestone? Cooper Tires. Surely you jest.
Since no one is posting similar claims about the IRL I ask, where does the income come from for that series?
Sponsorship? TV income? Sanction fees? Indy 500?
How much money is T. George spending to fill the field for the 500 and the series?
Do the hypothetical math.
I promise you will be illuminating.
CC financials are private but KK did tell us CCWS does not pay subsidies to the teams. This is true.
The Series is run like a business and was revamped from the old CART to stop the financial bleeding.
Take it or leave it, I don't care.
Plain & simple: the numbers are in their heads. Unless one of the principals has decided to lay it out on Motorsport Forum, there is no way to know how much is being made or lost. What people tend to do is use a b@st@rdized form of backwards accounting, based on historical data from when CART was a public company (when such audited data was available).Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
There is a fellow on another forum, who has close ties to the series (no, not the one you're probably thinking of,,,,,) and he claims that the entity known as "Champ Car" is indeed turning a profit now. And that's entirely possible. Too many people assume that there is only one entity in play in the Champ Car World Series. While I seriously doubt that the mezzanine that makes up CCWS is anywhere near as deep or complex as the one that makes up Formula One, there is more than just one entity. And so it's very possible for one to be turning a profit, even if the other 3, 4 or 5 are not.
But the bottomline is, we're talking about private concerns here. And anyone who would tell you to the dollar what is being made or lost is likely full of message board shizzle. As Q&A Virus pointed out, the teams and drivers don't need to know, so why do the fans?
Sanguin, there is no link and frankly, I don't need to provide one...I was in business with OWRS/CCWS when most of the deals that are in effect today were negotiated...I have just one question for you regarding this matter...who is Jim Cox and why would he know better than you how much money CCWS is in the red or black? If you can answer this question, then I will be happy to go on reading the tripe that's been around this forum for the past month or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
So nothing then,just as I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
PS, I don't believe for one minute that you know all the deals in CC.
we're not that gullible.
I'm just a fan.
We also know that KK does not always tell the truth, based on how he has to respond to the situation. Case in point, last weekend at the news conference, KK said none of the owners had spoken to TG in a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
That is a lie.
By his own statements, KK had previously said that he talked with TG in February about Honda provding engines so a few CC teams could run at Indy. "But I was serious." were KK's own words.
So he lied.
What makes you think he is not lying about offereing subsidies to teams?
Who is "we're"?Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Time and time again, heelntoe has proven his credibility.
What's your record of credibility? If you are who I think you are, let's go all the way back to the CART stock days.
Are you really serious with that crap? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Ask the teams,really.
As I expected, you don't know one of the most key players in the design of the CART acquisition AND the original AND current CCWS business models...and the man who oversees the financials! Now everyone on this forum can be rest assured that they are too not so gullible as to believe a single post you have provided. Your spin is OVER and I am happily off to the tennis finals knowing that CCWS could not have been so dim as to hire someone with no knowledge...IMO, of course!Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Heelntoe, is Jim Cox the current COO or corporate counsel? If not, then I would say that while he might have a better idea of what's currently going on, he likely doesn't know exactly what's going on either.
I am no where near the league that the principals of CCWS (or the IRL) occupy. And for the past 20+ years, even I have put together entities that angry ex-wives and their attorneys couldn't crack into. Only if someone, who sees the books of a private entity, decides to share that financial information (and they are honest about it), would you (truly) know. If that's not the case, you will not, and do not know. This isn't rocket science. I'm not sure why people have such an issue with it.
This isn't a slap at you (or Sanguin). I have no dog in this pointless pi$$ing match. But to put it bluntly, neither of you knows for a fact whether the entity known as "Champ Car" makes or loses money.
Not to me he hasn't. There's no proof of anything he says about himself and about this series.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
JAG, I agree. thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Yes, I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
KK was quoted by several sources that he talked to TG in February about Indy. You can't just throw away those quotes because you don't like them.
Then, last weekend he said he hadn't talked to TG for a year.
Obviously, he lied.
Sorry, you can't dispute that.
KK lies. I just proved it. Prove that he didn't lie about the subsidies.
If that's what he had said, yes it would be a lie. But that's not what he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
I also do not think that Kalkhoven always tells the truth. But you need a better example to prove the point.
Ask the TEAMS, e-mail them.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
You're little hissy fit about a phone call about indy is so typical of the wringing of hands that goes on at TF trying denigrate the series. It's laughable at best.
"I can absolutely tell you that no one in Champ Car management or I or Paul or Dan or Jerry have had any conversations with the IRL in a year," said Kalkhoven."Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
You write it off as "laughable" because that is the only way you can dispell it. You can't approach it logically, because there is no logic in your position.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Somewhat better than your comprehensive skills, apparently. At first you quoted Kalkhoven as stating that he had not had discussions with Tony George, then you provide the actual quote where it was "the IRL". As they are not the same entity, which is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Hopefully you fellows have a better understanding of home ec. than you do of (basic) business and legal entities.
Yet, Jag, you guys would be the first to say that "if he was talking to TG, he was talking to the IRL."
I would just say that if you are talking with the OWNER of the IRL, you are talking to the IRL. Especially when you are talking about participation in the IRL's largest race.
BTW, make sure you see my PM.
I did and I appreciate that. Thank you.
But now, as for this "you guys" comment, you apparently didn't get the memo that I don't drink the Kool-Aid from either series. Other than commenting on what a trainwreck BOTH series have become, I basically don't take sides these days. I simply stated the difference between what you claimed Kalkhoven said, and what he actually said.
To get the fur on my neck up, you'd have to take a swipe at Lewis Hamilton or something that I genuinely care about. All I'm doing here is commenting on two racing series which are both on life support, and a form of racing that appears to be dying in America.
Lewis Hamilton? What a wuss!!! ;)
:D
I don’t know what they may or may not be doing as to making their financials appealing for a potential buyer, but I’ve seen what they present to a potential/actual promoter. The only thing I can figure is Mazda and Bridgestone are paying ad rates that would be more applicable to a broadcast with 4 or 5 times the viewership CC is getting. But as they say, "it looks good on paper".Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
-John
I also suspect that what these companies are paying is very little in terms of actual dollars so that only compounds the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by john2112
All this reminds me of Jim Fruedenberg reportedly pointing to "his success" in Denver as indicator of the potential "success" in Vegas and Phoenix. Funny how that turned out to be true. I am told that the Fruedster promised 180,000 fans (like Denver-what a joke on both accounts) would be in town this past Easter. Right. Sure I will buy some more Enron stock please!
The point of this thread is what happens next isn't it? Money seems to have a lot to do with that doesn't it?
So show me the money!
Where is all this income coming from to put the series 'in the black" as the owners of OWRS claim?
Promoters? That seems to be what they would have us all believe. Well, scratch China and Phoenix. I hear talk that Vegas and other North American promoters are balking at paying what is asked too because ChampCar has not been delivering what they promised. The rumor is out there that the Vegas GP is being shopped ... but so far no takers. I also hear that Vegas, Houston, Cleveland, San Jose, St. Jovite and, Edmonton all lost serious dollars in 2007.
Dr Jack nailed the reason: There is simply no economy in Champ Car.
It is obvious that Sanquin is fanatically invested in being right about ChampCar and he is one of the 'Internet Operatives" that the owners confide in and ask to defend against those who doubt. Just look at the sheer number of posts he has in only nine days under his current screen name.
I ask everyone to go back to my other post and do the math. Consider how much income ChampCar and IndyCar can really have and how much expense that they both must deal with.
I think that will offer a clue to what happens next and that has nothing to do with ChampCar turning a phantom profit.
One thing that has happened next is that the latest, greatest new European sponsor AKA Trust has now gone to GP2. I guess they didn't trust ChampCar to deliver on the promises made or the found more value in the stability and comparative legitimacy of GP2 which soon gets a faster and sexier new car along with a direct linkage to F1 which is where most of the sponsors that the Kalkhoven and Co. are now targeting really want to be.
Then there is the coming defection of Dario Franchiiti and Sam Hornish to NASCAR... that is also about money. Losing both hurts all of open wheel racing in the USA. Until there is one series, this sort of thing will continue to happen.
I loved CART and yes I know it is dead but IMHO, ChampCar and the IRL are both are trying to practice identity theft and most of us can spot a fake. I agree with Dr. Jack, I want The Real Thing and that starts with the truth.
We "hear " a lot of things too.
Put up some links,otherwise its just unfounded rumors trying to denigrate the series.
We'll wait.
dr, jack.
I suspect they are paying what's agreed to. They obviously have a contract and want to be in CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
It's right there in the financials of CC,which you are not privey to.Quote:
The point of this thread is what happens next isn't it? Money seems to have a lot to do with that doesn't it?
So show me the money!
Where is all this income coming from to put the series 'in the black" as the owners of OWRS claim?
Please provide a link, you couldn't be more wrong.Quote:
Promoters? That seems to be what they would have us all believe. Well, scratch China and Phoenix. I hear talk that Vegas and other North American promoters are balking at paying what is asked too because ChampCar has not been delivering what they promised. The rumor is out there that the Vegas GP is being shopped ... but so far no takers. I also hear that Vegas, Houston, Cleveland, San Jose, St. Jovite and, Edmonton all lost serious dollars in 2007.
in your opinion, I think he/you are wrong.Quote:
Dr Jack nailed the reason: There is simply no economy in Champ Car.
huh?Quote:
It is obvious that Sanquin is fanatically invested in being right about ChampCar and he is one of the 'Internet Operatives" that the owners confide in and ask to defend against those who doubt. Just look at the sheer number of posts he has in only nine days under his current screen name.
you guessed wrong.how would you know what Trust thinks? reaching.Quote:
One thing that has happened next is that the latest, greatest new European sponsor AKA Trust has now gone to GP2. I guess they didn't trust ChampCar to deliver on the promises made or the found more value in the stability and comparative legitimacy of GP2 which soon gets a faster and sexier new car along with a direct linkage to F1 which is where most of the sponsors that the Kalkhoven and Co. are now targeting really want to be.
Trust may or may not have a team in CC, but will probably be a sponsor.
I'm not sure it hurts CC, I know what's wrong in IRL, but I'm not talking about it. ;)Quote:
Then there is the coming defection of Dario Franchiiti and Sam Hornish to NASCAR... that is also about money. Losing both hurts all of open wheel racing in the USA. Until there is one series, this sort of thing will continue to happen.
Is Jim Cox divulging CC financials to you? Were you with KPLJ Ventures?Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
As a matter of fact, Jim Cox, who is KK's right arm and works for a little company called Ernst, helped prepare and oversaw the due diligence book for the acquisition of CART for people like ME!!! JC prepares checks for and even helps decide how much of his clients money goes to an untold number of payees. JC knows more about the CURRENT day-to-day financial health of CCWS than anyone, even more than at least one of the Amigos :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
I have no further interest in playing into your nonsense and frankly, your constant comparison to the IRL only hurts CCWS as it forces more to look closer to the actual business operations of the two series and in that respect, there is no comparison.
Oh, and IMG has no interest in repping CCWS as I just left the guys that would be responsible for working on such an account. Laughable was the quote I got and after sitting watching a sport where attendance is irrefutable, sponsors are endless and the product is as exciting as any sport could be, I understand why. Sanguin, if you want to actually do something good for CCWS, do like Gary and Jimispeed, initiate constructive ideas for what might fix the problems...of which there are many!
ditto to you too. I stand by what I said about CC. If Jim Cox is telling you things, that is a matter for the owners to handle. Especially you posting numbers that are supposed to be private.Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
I never said anything about IMG. Sounds like you're into nascar.good luck with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
For someone who continues to challenge folks to prove what they say you sure as hell like to play it fast and loose don't you? Ok, put up or shut up. What PROOF do you have to back that up? I hope it is true, I'd like nothing better. But I've sat by for over a week watching the damage YOU have been doing. "The damage", you ask? Yes the damage. No matter what anyone says that may be in the slightest way deemed derogatory by you, (even if it is said by someone know to be a real OWRS supporter, by the folks who have been here a very long time) you attack it or make up some STUPID comment like the one above. You are giving OWRS fans a bad name by your continuous illogical comments. But then again maybe thats your intent, who knows, who cares.
So time's up. Time for YOU to be called out in the same way you call out others. Where's YOUR damn proof? No sliding off on to some side arguement, no dismissing me as an IRL supporter (my hatred for the series is legend here). Let's focus purely and simply on this comment you made. Where is the link, quote any manner of proof you'd like to provide will suffice.
I would love to know they are in the black, nothing would make me happier.
Gary
Sanguin, thank you for thinking of me as being one in the same with the good Dr. I'll take that as a compliment. I also want to give a shout out to Heelntoe for stating the obvious in his most recent post: Comparison of the two open wheel series on a business level really is illuminating in a very unfortuante way for OWRS. Despite this, the IRL lads seem to be suffering a spot of bother this week with the prospect of losing not one but two of their most recent champions. A third champ would have left if Dan Wheldon could have talked Chippy into giving him a NASCAR seat.
If one looks at the open wheel champions on both side of the split since 1995 the picture is not encouraging:
CART/ChampCar:
1995 Champ: J. Villeneuve, 1997 F1 Champ now in NASCAR Trucks;
1996 Champ: J. Vasser, Semi retired and now a team owner in Champ Car;
1997-1998 Champ: A. Zanardi (thankfully alive) racing in Touring Cars;
1999 Champ: Juan Pablo Montoya; 2000 Indy 500 winner now racing in NASCAR Nextel Cup;
2000-2001 Champ: G. DeFerran, 2003 Indy 500 Champ, retired;
2002 Champ: C. DaMatta, sidelined by Champ Car accident
2003 Champ: P. Tracy still racing in Champ Cars;
2004-2007 Champ: S. Bourdais, headed to F1 in third tier team
Champions still active as Champ Car drivers: 1 - Paul Tracy
IRL IndyCar Series:
1996 IRL Co-Champs: S. Sharp still racing in IRL, B Clakins, who knows?
1997 Champ: T. Stewart, 2 time Nextel Cup Champ racing in NASCAR
1998 Champ: K. Brack, 1999 Indy 500 winner, retired
1999 Champ: G. Ray, retired due to lack of interest by teams
2000 Champ: B. Lazier, semi retired due to lack of interest by teams
2001, 2002 and 2006 Champ: S. Hornish, 2006 Indy 500 winner is probably NASCAR Sprint Cup bound in 2008.
2003 Champ: S. Dixon, still racing in the Indy Car Series
2004 Champ: T. Kannan, still racing in the Indy Car Series
2005 Champ: D. Wheldon, still racing in the Indy Car Series but wishes he was in NASCAR.
2007 Champ: D. Franchitti, 2007 Indy 500 winner is probably NASCAR Sprint Cup bound in 2008.
Champions still active as Indy Car drivers (as of this writing): 4.5 - Scott, Sharp (.5) ; Sam Hornish (3); Scott Dixon; Tony Kannan, Dario Franchitti.
Within a week this could be down to 2.5 champions left in the Indy Car series plus one two time Indy 500 winner who can't seem to win a championship.
This situation is really hard to overcome and it has everything to do with money. One fair sized NASCAR car team has twice the overall economy of the entire ChampCar World Series. The biggest NASCAR teams have more dollars and sponsors than the entire Indy Car Series. Meanwhile, people like Sanguin try to convice us that ChampCar is somehow making a profit and all is rosy with the promoters and the teams. Can you sell me some more Enron shares please?
Sure, It's my opinion ,just like others with no links. It's my opinion from people I know and from what I've "heard". Happy? I said you don't have to believe it, take it for what it is.I don't have to believe anyone else who doesn't have proof either no matter how posts they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
As far as damaging anything ,that's YOUR opinion.I think unfound rumors are much more damamging and are being used to denigrate the series.That's MY opinion.
I rather talk about CC and racing than other posters.
Looking forward to Surfer's ,did you see my news thread?
Lexmark Indy had their kickoff.
See you in 2008!
Unfounded rumors have a name here: Sanguin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
As expected a duck and weave. Nope it won't fly. Show me where in your original message that you indicated this was your opinion. Nope, you stated it as if it were a fact. There was no "I think" or "in my opinion" there was there? Now for a quick lesson in linguistics, without such a disclaimer the statement is considered to be a factual expression.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Further the question at hand is not about OTHERS with no links. This is about YOUR statement (not opinion, a statement) about the series being in the black. A statement with nothing to back it up. A statement that when called out now becomes an opinion.
It is just this sort of illogical ramblings that is what I was talking about when I said you are doing damage. And yes that is my opinion, further it is my opinion that such behavior IS much more detrimental than the obvious unfounded rumors. You make fans of OWRS appear to be a bunch of fools.
Gary